Closed Captions Audio Described

Terry Courtney, a Warm Springs tribal member of Wasco ancestry, discusses traditional fishing methods on the Columbia River, including the making and use of dip nets and set nets from natural plant fibers. He describes women's roles in harvesting materials and processing fish, winter teachings of unwritten laws, and how downstream dams and land restrictions changed indigenous fishing practices and materials over time.

Transcript

0:00 And welcome to the Tent of Many Voices. This tent is part of a traveling exhibit that has been following the Lewis and Clark Trail since January of 2003, set up in cities, towns, reservations all along the trail. Uh We have followed it all the way from the East Saint Louis up to the Mandan villages and to the Pacific Ocean. And now we're on the return journey heading back east,
0:24 just like Lewis and Clark were 200 years ago, Lewis and Clark made this journey in three years, time period. We'll be making it as well in that same time frame, but they would not have been able to complete their journey, had they not had the help and assistance of many of the different native Americans that they met along the way. In this Tent of Many Voices, we bring people in from different backgrounds,
0:48 different walks of life to tell their side of the Lewis and Clark story or tell the side of the Native Americans and what their lives were like before Lewis and Clark and after Lewis and Clark. So it is with great pleasure today that I introduce to you our next guest. This is Terry Courtney and he's gonna be talking about fishing along the Great Columbia River. So let's please make Terry welcome.
1:18 Thank you very much. Uh If, if any of you in the back room cannot hear me. Uh Sometimes my voice gets real low, so just raise your hand. I'd really appreciate it. I know it's not fun to go somewhere and, and not understand or hear people.
1:38 I am the oldest of seven children. I have one brother, five sisters.
1:47 My ancestry starts here on the Columbia River. The Wasco Little Village up here by Lone Pine Indian Village, by the Dalles and where the Dalles Dam is. There's still some old structures there that our people had built modern type buildings and now they're dilapidated, but that's where my ancestry starts from. Now, we've been moved inland
2:11 uh to the Warren Springs Indian Reservation which is about 90 miles or an hour and a half inland.
2:22 It's uh,
2:25 well, I guess I need to start off with uh
2:30 it took the
2:32 wig in my language as good day.
2:36 Kgi Maita. You're cly Eika. I'm just asking how are you? I am fine.
2:44 Him, Leo. Always, which means my name is Always, which is little brother. The name I adopted from my grandfather and my grandfather. I thought so much of it that I put it on my license plate. And so now I drive around the countryside and I have, I have my own name on my own vehicle.
3:11 It's kind of warm up here. So it's kinda, kinda taking my mind off of where I need to be and, and what I need, what I need to cover. Um,
3:23 years ago,
3:26 most of the people on the Columbia River never really traveled away from the river.
3:33 When the fish started running, we needed to catch each and every fish that we could. But even though there was an abundance of salmon,
3:44 we had people in our tribe that would tell us when we had enough fish. Years ago, there was between nine and 16 million fish that run the Columbia river.
3:59 But even then we had bad times just as much as we had the good times. And the way our people looked at it, the way I look at it as a person of vision
4:11 is every time you have a bad time,
4:15 the creator is testing you to see what you're going to do. The fish are low, the water is low. The huckleberries aren't there very much. So, the creators putting you to a to uh I believe, put us to a test. How do we combined as a tribe or as a clan to harvest and take only what we need. Then the rewards come every so often.
4:44 I was raised in a boarding school
4:51 and uh to, well, I lived away up in the woods with my mom and dad and uh one day this big black Buick drives up and this lady all dressed in white, which is a, I thought was a nurse got out and was talking to my parents. And the next thing I knew I was, I was five years old and I was riding
5:14 down to warm springs to a boarding school. So I never got to see my parents for about, about three years.
5:24 And it was, it was quite different because in a boarding school, we had to, to get up and then we had to all washed and get cleaned up all by a certain time.
5:41 And then we had to line up outside and be in and actually be inspected when you're 5-6 years old and on up to the eighth grade.
5:52 So, yeah, I never, I never spoke any of my language. I did not have long hair. So in a way I was blessed here, I, I wasn't picked on because I, I did, I only knew English when my friends around me that knew, knew the language were forbidden to talk it. And there were consequences. The same as there was consequences
6:14 when we were learning things to like to read and write. If we consistently didn't get it right, then they would kind of tap you on the hands right here. And if you persist, if they thought you persisted on being nonconformist and they would turn your hands over and, and uh lay it across your hands. So a lot of our elders
6:39 grew up, they grew through the system before I completed. It did not ever want to be called an Indian or didn't want to be known as an Indian because there was too much heartache with it. So even now you run into some of the tribal people that are seem to be real hard nosed and everything and it's, it's something that,
7:03 you know, is just not passed out of the mind And then it passed on, this is what some of the kids have learned.
7:10 But I was fortunate enough to have my dad come in from um outside our culture. He was from Alaska. He came down into the whole area and was raised, raised their past among missionaries for probably four or five families before he's adopted.
7:32 So the first thing they did is after they got him, they asked him when was his birthday? And he just said, what's a birthday?
7:44 So they thought you're not serious. And they said, well, I don't know what a birthday is. So they said, well, that's the day you were born. And so we got you on September the 17th. You're, you're about this old. So September the 17th, 1912. Is your birthday?
8:03 And the preacher and his wife, they were English, their last name was Elsworth. So they said, well, you're not really our son. So we're gonna pick you out a name. So they went down the list and lo and behold, here's Courtney. So that's how we got our name
8:23 and my dad uh
8:28 was raised off the reservation. And so when he met my mother, we no longer, even though we lived on the reservation, we no longer had ties to the language. We didn't have ties to the, to the beliefs and stuff that we had. But the one thing my dad did teach me was to when I, we mainly were fishermen.
8:52 I mean, not, not as you see a net, but a fly fisherman. And so that's all my dad knew. So he always eventually told me as I got older, I was catching too many fish and so did my grandpa. So he said you need to take only what you need. So if you go down and you catch fish for a week for the week, you're no longer gonna fish. So you have to string your fishing out.
9:16 So that's, that was my first
9:19 knowledge of, of having to deal with anything in nature.
9:30 I'd like to share with you. Now, um years before then when uh our people first lived on the river, we depended on the salmon, steelhead coho whatever was in that river. At time,
9:49 the fishing methods uh very greatly from most of the stuff that you, you see now
10:00 uh the water, the Columbia river, as you now see, it wasn't the way it is. But then it was a series of whole bunch of different rapids, turbulent boiling water. And a lot of spots. And this was about the only spot that the tribes could really fish because when the river was wide in spots, the fish were all over.
10:22 So as the channels narrowed up, the water became turbulent and, and rough and this is where the fish congregated and they would pull up in holes and some would go straight on through and some would go around and rest. And so our people would have different methods of fishing for the salmon. And uh before we get too much into that,
10:45 you probably see the fiber on this and you will say that that is really thick. How can you catch a salmon with this?
10:54 But most of our nets and stuff were made out of fibers. This is the inner, this would have been the inner bark of cedar
11:03 and the fine mesh on the nets. The refiner would have been out of dog bang uh nettles and there's some other materials that are long forgotten or that are, people didn't want to share with other tribal members. So it just disappeared with the coming of livestock onto the reservations. And
11:26 uh not people not having enough savvy to, to uh have enough crops to feed the, feed the wildlife. Then they naturally ate everything in sight. So a lot of, a lot of things that were new medicines, fibers disappeared.
11:55 This is just a, this is just a little bagnet. I don't have a dip net, which would be about this long and fit on a hoop this size to about like this.
12:11 And each one of these strands, the women would go out and they would harvest, they would harvest these plants. Some of them were this short and some were as tall as I am. They've taken the, they break the plant up and they use uh stones until they get the fiber and then they peel them back and then they take all the,
12:37 they would take all the fiber and if you put all strands together and they would, they would spin them like this until they got to the end to be free. So then you put another, another one on here and you put this over
12:54 and uh if you wanted them larger than you, I left him at a small, small diameter. And if you wanted them larger, you just took two or three, whatever you needed. And they did the same thing.
13:11 So to make a dip net, I would estimate that it would take probably about two lengths of a football field for these women to spin this twine so that the men could weave the nets. And usually the men were the only ones that wove the nets and the women did as they do. Now, they did most of the work.
13:37 They spent all the time. They were always consistently working on that. Plus they had to take care of the Children. Then when the salmon came, the men would bring the salmon to the women and they would cut it
13:50 and they would hang it to dry. Most of it would, you know, there was no refrigerators or anything. So most of it had to be dried. So it was all played and laid out air dried. So they were continuously hanging fish, cutting them, hanging them. And, uh,
14:08 the way I understood it is nothing was ever wasted
14:15 in the villages. They had dogs. So they would take care of all the dry, all the meat, the backbones, the heads and the heads after they, they dried them laid out, they were called Monu. Each strip of dried jerky was called Cottage that's like jerky. And uh, the backbone II, I don't know the words for that, but they had dried skins too.
14:41 And after they got through that, they ate the eggs. And II, I never wanted to eat the eggs because they just, you know, they look slimy, they pretty color, but they didn't smell good. So, you know, to kind of get off the subject a little bit one year. Um, my little daughter was sitting there and she's a year and a half old. So we catch a fall salmon. And
15:02 the fall salmon have like marbles for eggs because they're so big. Whereas the, the spring salmon, they have skins and the eggs are real small, so they're together. So I'm looking at these eggs, I'm looking at my daughter and I thought I'm gonna see what she's gonna do. So I rolled out about 10 or 12 and she starts eating them and I put some more on her and she started eating them. So I thought, well, if she can eat them, so can I, so
15:26 I ate it and it really isn't any different than a boiled egg. Which to me was surprising. It's just the thought of it.
15:39 And now we get back to where the, the women doing the work. And after the women did this and uh certain women were picked out of the tribe and they would go and travel up to about six months away from each village and clans. And they would make this big circle going up into the like, like uh I'll take the
16:04 maize sometime the celery comes out and they go out and they harvest the celery and that's only edible during the season. It can't be, can't be dried or anything. But then they go and they start digging roots. There's about five or six different types of roots. There's some that are, that are around, I think they kind of call them watto down here that are down in the Willamette River back in uh
16:28 our country is called looks and you have duck, which is uh about this long and about that wide looks like a car. And they're all about 6 to 88 inches underneath the ground. Then you are p, and it looks, it's a little root system. A plant that only sticks this high on the ground and you only dig down, possibly, maybe an inch and they,
16:52 they fan out but they're, they're in a rock patch so all these can be dry so that some of these women would go out and they would pick the roots and they would dry them. And then from there they would make it into the higher country where they had the medicine stuff, canvas and, and other stuff, didn't they? From there? They hit into the huckleberries and once they were into the huckleberries, then they dried them up there
17:17 by building fires and uh, having finding rotten logs and they would, they would sh uh scoop them out a certain way. This is what I was told by one of my friend scoop out a certain way. Then the, uh, one woman would be in charge and they would put a bunch of huckleberries off and then every, every half hour they would turn the berries and turn the berries. So that's how they,
17:41 they took care of everything. So when you came back, a big basket of huckleberries, like this might be just a little blue conglomeration like this.
17:52 And I knew that they had our people long ago, had to have foods where you could travel because uh,
18:01 as, as the tribes move through different areas, some of the people didn't like, you and they were saying this is my country. So you didn't dare build a fire. So you had to be able to travel through different parts of the country. And I think, uh through this whole United States as we know it, I think all the tribes had their own, their own version of what they call Pemmican.
18:25 The base on there's two different types of bases. I guess there could be three now, But they had one that was, they ground up the salmon and that was mixed with, with, uh, all the berries and the roots and stuff. And then if you wanted the meat, then you took the elk or you took the deer meat and you ground it up and put it into them. But the key to all this, I've been hearing two different versions
18:51 and for years, I've always wanted to try and make some, but no one would give me the ingredient. So, finally, three years ago upriver, they're talking about how essential the steel head is to the tribal people because they cut the underbelly off and then they hang it out and they catch it and dry it. And this is what they mix with the, with the Pemmican
19:15 and that just that so won't become rancid. And so just lately I read another book and it says they take the oil out of a chinook. So it's kind of a, I'd hate to trial and error and the other one is I say three because now you have people that are into to non meats or anything. So you could possibly
19:38 make that into, uh, all vegetable dish if you have any questions along the way and don't understand or, or want to know something, just don't be afraid to hold up your hand or say, excuse me. And yeah,
19:55 so as our, as our women folk traveled, then the men folk, it was up to them to sc ground the shores and, uh, meander out a little bit looking for whatever deer they could find that were, that would be near the river because the elk were up in the higher country. So that's why our people use the, uh, Columbia river and
20:19 the natural resource out of it, which would be the fish. That was our currency. So we need a buffalo, buffalo highs and certain times of the year people would bring in from the, from the Taos would bring in the buffalo highs, bring in the obsidian that we needed and then tail your shells off the coast. So there's various
20:42 commodities that were traded up and down the river. And I'm pretty sure a lot of you have heard of Seilo Falls, which was the, the last of the great trading centers,
20:56 but it, it was not the biggest.
21:00 It was the last is the only reason you hear about it. And people saying it was the biggest, but it was not the biggest
21:08 up here by the Dells. There's a place called Clyde Hawk where Horse Steve Lake is, that was known as probably the one of the biggest trading centers. And if you look at the gorge as you're going up, it's all steep walls, you get up to the dolls and it opens up. So it was easier for tribes to come in and, and venture and trade right there. So that was why most of the big trading was done
21:33 up river until you got to the mouth of the Columbia River. And then there is for uh the main tribe, there was the Chinook nation.
21:45 And uh as you come up, you have different, different uh clans and bands of tribal people like in this area. Uh See you sir
22:01 River Bridge of the Gods. This was owned and fished by the dog river tribe.
22:10 And I think you, I don't know if you've been aware of when Lewis and Clark came down, they, they dumped over a few times. So they pulled out above the Cascade rapids and we went around and put their boots on the side and it ate all their equipment out, you know, to dry what they didn't know.
22:34 Well, the Indians came along and Indians are picking up stuff and walked off. And so they were, hey, what's going on? You know, the people stealing from us right in daylight, you know, but the dog river people own this area. They made the trail. So you had to pay a fee the same as you would have to come, you know, pay over to come over this bridge. So there was a
22:59 kind of a big must, uh, misunderstanding and, and unfortunately, it was in black and white saying that, you know, they were thieves and stuff. But, uh, and of course, you know, the some, some tribes say if they saw something they like, then you, you better keep your, your hand or an eye on it pretty close because it could tend to disappear once in a while.
23:24 But most of the time
23:27 if our people saw something, they like, they would try to trade for it.
23:33 And so I always looked at the, uh, trading back into, I know one of the
23:45 necklaces was made on the coast out here, but the heyday, India and made it up to Columbia and eventually made it back to Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So I always looked at it as the, the tribes had the internet first. It was just a lot slower.
24:04 Um, and, uh,
24:09 I also have a name they were given to me,
24:15 uh, in the honor of my, uh, grandfather and it is tt a Cole,
24:24 but right now I don't use it too much because there's a little bit of conflict with another member of our tribe. So I'll, I'll take on two other two other names and then I will take my grandfather's name still, which I which I am entitled to. But the names are given to, to all the Children as they're growing up so that you'll always remember your ancestors.
24:49 So even now when I went into the service, I came back out, I didn't know some of these kids and I'd only been gone for two years.
24:57 So I'd ask them their name and I didn't recognize their last name. So I'd say, well, who's your mother? I, who's your grandmother? Then I knew who they were. So to us, it was like this is your, this is another way to trace your DNA. Um
25:19 Trying to think here back to when we were growing up along the river.
25:25 Now, I'm not sure how the female part interacted because I think the daughters as they grew up, they were just taken right in to the, all the work, you know, the hard work and everything. But I know it for a while until a certain age, the boys and girls all played together.
25:49 But then there was a certain time where um, boyhood kind of died and they had you, they used to have a ceremony for when you, when you were a young man, you were no longer a child anymore. They also had a ceremony for honoring the girls into womanhood and this was a big thing, you know, it was nothing to be ashamed of. They had, they had uh
26:13 race that they, that they did for them. And it was astounding to, to find out that
26:23 some of their, I don't know if it's some of the tribes or all the tribes, but we have uh
26:30 right of fertility. And this is actually where they carved the stone out of a, excuse me. But they carved it a stone into a penis. And this is a right for s uh for fertility. I don't know how that went on. But to me it was, it was kind of different to see some of these things. And you, I mean, the way we're raised now, you're kinda
26:55 halfway ashamed to see some of this stuff or to even talk about it.
27:05 And as a, as a young boy, if I'd have been growing up in the village, when I start turning to young man, the first thing I would have to do is start learning how to make the knots to weaver net.
27:21 And you were
27:24 during the winter, we didn't fish, we didn't hunt, everything was away from us. Everything was hibernated. And so the tribes everywhere always looked at as a winner and stuff is when you, when you're a family, you spend time together, you teach each other by word of mouth, you teach each other your language, you teach each other the rights and stuff.
27:47 If you're gonna work on nets, you want to work on them, then if you're working on your hunting gear, you work on them, then we were not supposed to, as the salmon is running, we're not supposed to be working on making nets. I mean, we're supposed to be ready because each and every fish that you caught major difference.
28:08 So as a young man would make, they would have to make, say four or five inches or so, then as you got older then they got more and more. But probably by the time you'd, you've been working on it for two or three years, you had to be able to make a dip net
28:27 and Annette material was fairly strong man. So you, you didn't have to work on too many.
28:36 But after the coming of the white man, please don't take me wrong as the coming of the white man, then the tribes were pushed off of places where the natural material was. Livestock came down. If they weren't fed right, then they ate everything in sight.
28:53 Then a National Forest comes along and you can't go there and harvest anything.
28:59 So our people start turning to twine, you go to store twine. So you know, you catch two or three fish, they make a big hole in it. So our people, the boys as they were uh growing up in uh fifties, they were always constantly making nets because of the material that they had to work with. And finally they came up with uh
29:23 with nylon twine and that was much better, but it wasn't treated. So it tend to be very slick. So there was a trial and error of how to make a net to make different, different types of knots so that when the fish get in, they wouldn't split open the mesh and go right on through.
29:42 So even nowadays, we have a regular mash nat and a half, double knot, double knot and a half and the double knot and a half comes in really handy because that's when people started working the mono line so that the fish couldn't be able to see the nets and stuff
30:05 on the,
30:11 the boy, the, well, all the, all the Children in the family when you're growing up, we have laws that are unwritten
30:23 and those you had to learn word for word.
30:29 And sometimes as Children or say, you're a teen, you're 1920 years old and grandfather starts off with, you know, when someone dies on the river and the kids will say grandpa, we've heard it a million times and he'll, he'll say, but you haven't heard it enough because when I pass away, you have to be able to tell your Children the same thing.
30:54 And one of the reasons they didn't write it down is because you cannot amend it. You cannot add an amendment to an unwritten law. Now, people can even nowadays, there are people in the tribe, you know, uh it's not written down where people don't really know. So they, they got an idea.
31:19 So then it's up to myself or some other elders that know their laws that are supposed to be, which I did not know until I was about 36 years old. And I started doing, doing this fishing and doing hunting because up till then I had never been involved in any of my treaty stuff. I just went to watch the dancing and the celebrations and
31:43 there was no power. I was in, I went to the roost feast and everything and I didn't speak the language and they talked their native language. So I had no idea what they were saying or what they were doing.
31:55 And as I got older, while the elders start realizing that there was a gap, the language wasn't any good what they knew because a lot of the young people didn't know what they were talking about
32:16 uh in honor of the uh fish when we were, what we're supposed to still do is when the fish comes up.
32:28 Well, let me back up some
32:32 years ago when the river was wild and the water was turbulent, we could drink out of it anywhere. And the main reason being that as the water spilled down, it tribulated. And so all the, all the stuff that was impurities or any solids that were in the water would naturally float to the top. So even nowadays,
32:57 I know I, I've tried to share with people if you're rafting somewhere, you lose your water, you don't have any water. Find some tumbling water, you take your cup and you turn it upside down. Put it below the water surface about a foot, turn it over and swish it a little bit. You bring it up because you have the more pure water underneath. As you come up to the top, everything flows off
33:20 so you can, you can get your water that way.
33:27 Now, when the waters narrowed, some fish went through and some came up and were washed back down, some came up to the falls. And I think you've all seen the picture where the bear is standing out there waiting for the, for the fish
33:45 for a demonstration. A lot of people are, a lot of our old people would take and they would have a, a net assembly with this is a waterfall right here. So the net would be shoved out here, fish jumping in, you know, there, there's 9 million fish. So there's no problem with getting a fish. So when a fish, two or three fish and then they pulled back in
34:09 and on the, on the other end of this, there was another net. So when you pull this one in club took the fish out, you were pushing it back and forth. So you always had a, had a net in the water at this level. And so that was one of the ways that back in the old days that they got him, plus they uh they did a, a dip net system, I guess I'll have to
34:34 kind of back up here. Have, do you all know what a dip net is? Dip, dip on a dipping, just sweeping the water anyway, since I got this year, I was gonna make it into set it. But I realized that
34:54 usually this is usually a fur pole. Douglas fir wait for, tends to, to break. And even though this is a tubing, it has about the same principle.
35:11 But you usually need to find where the, where the fish come up because most of your fish are gonna be out in the middle of the river. And that's the plan. That's, that's how nature takes care of herself. Make sure that all the, all the good fish are going up and then you have the weaker strand which comes in, comes in along the banks. So you take your, you dip the water come out like this and when you hit the end and you
35:35 raise up, come over plunge it in real quick and, and then come down and as you're coming down, you there be rocks and stuff. So you have to eventually you'll, you'll find out where all the rocks are. So you bring this up over the water, you coming in like this and as you're coming down like this and all of a sudden it'll tremor. Well, the fish has got in there and it's trying to get out. So you just jerk up real quick.
36:01 And the old ones didn't, didn't have this, but they had a, a real long, a real long head on them and they were probably three times as big as this and they were all wooden.
36:13 So they pull them up and then whack them and then get them out and then start scooping again.
36:20 Nowadays, they have, uh, metal hoops and, uh, when you catch a salmon now most of them you jerk real quick and this will collapse down into a bag. So your fish is hung out right here.
36:38 So as you're sweeping the water and coming down to here, and sometimes you can feel, you can feel it. You can feel when you miss us, it'll slide right, right, right by him and you come back up and you come down and then when you get in there, sometimes if you're not quick enough just because you have a net, you know, they won't be in there on the other thing too is you,
37:05 the fish hear that and they're gone, they'll turn and they're going down the river.
37:13 See this more gentle, that's more like wood. So wood was always recognized as being a lot better but became, became more work and harder to get.
37:39 This is what I would go through even if I was on the platform
37:46 and come down enough enough time to, I'm a night fisherman and our tribe years ago used to never, hardly fish at night because it was dangerous and there were so many fish you could get what you could always get what you wanted.
38:02 So a set net, you just take this over,
38:06 plunge it into the water and you have what they call a tie down rope.
38:13 So you move this down and just make sure this is tight
38:22 and you just stand on it
38:26 and so the water tribulations and the balances and it moves and stuff. So you have to get used to. I like putting my hand on it because if a fish hits the hoop on the outside, I can feel, I can feel, sometimes feel a spin or if it hits straight onto the pole because you can hear a thud. But you don't, you, it's hard to tell because of the, the water, whether the salmon has hit the hoop or has hit the pole,
38:48 so it hits a pole. You feel you can feel it through here and then nothing down here. So the reason they, they call this a set net is because as the water rises, you'll have to move up with it. And sometimes you have to, to move
39:08 in a straight line either way. So that's why they, these trigger strings are used like this. And we usually just try a twig on here
39:19 real quick like that. And when you do get a fish and you pull it up, you get your hair on the deck and just like this, you have to watch for the club and everything. You get it out here and then you always got to make sure that you put it up here because that fish is, if you put it down here, that fish is out and more, more likely at night, he's going to be gone. You put it out here and then you look for your club and I usually spin the
39:44 and then try to hit the salmon between the right between the eyes on top of his head. And the reason I, I don't use a flashlight,
39:55 we don't have very many fishing places, but we have more and more fishermen. So if I build a platform and I leave or I do something, I have people coming down and bother me. So if they don't know how much fish I'm catching the chances are they're not going to be down bothering my fishing place. So in the dark, the salmon is a streak like this
40:17 and it's narrow and it gets white to the head. So I know where the head is. So you just reach down there and push down on it and then you smack him gently and then when you're just shivering, then you can, you can feel up on the head and, and I've never hit myself in the, in the hand. Then you have to pull a salmon out. And a lot of as the fish are running, I just laid the fish to the back
40:41 of the platform. Take this and push it in real quick. Take this underneath a two by four and then you take it around and lash it down and no, you have to reach out here to find the string in the dark. OK? It's working real good. Nothing's hit. So then you get up, go back, put your fish back in the, in the box and come over and, and a
41:06 I use a, uh
41:11 I'll have a two by four out here so that if the fish does bounce, he won't go off the edge because sometimes you're trying to find a club and they get over here and you get too far over this way. If he drops over the edge and you have to bring him up over the lumber and the lumber will catch on the net and you have problems. And I also have a two by four ni side and I put a flashlight right here in a flashlight in case I need it.
41:36 And there's a, what's missing on this is uh a set net will have one wire that comes to the front here. Another one that will come about from right here
41:47 to this side of the hoop and it comes underneath here, it's called the tie back. So when you throw it over. So when you're fishing at night, you have to, I usually grab the pole and stuff and then you have to search for the trigger string, put it in your hand like this so that when you throw it over, it's not, it doesn't catch you on the feet or doesn't catch you behind the back of the head
42:12 because it will, and when you put it over, most of us just put it over and you, so you push it hard. So if this thing comes over the top of your head, it, you could, you could go in and we're all tied with, with uh safety ropes.
42:27 And so the tie back is, is really essential because uh as the salmon come up, they glide along the rocks, that's their guide path and the water is spilling and boiling and tribulation. So when they come on here like this thing, and so if fish aren't hitting in there, I have to pull it up and then I have to untie everything.
42:51 I actually everything the wire comes over here, then I have to get out on this plank and I have to reach out there and lengthen or shorten the wire. And I come over here and then I have to take this one back.
43:07 It looks kind of dangerous. When I first started, this old guy told me, you know, all this stuff and I'm standing there. I, and the only thing I've ever done is fly fish.
43:22 You know, you get out there and, and here's this platform sitting out there above the water, get on it. Oh man. You've heard people say I wouldn't get on that thing for, save my life. So I'm thinking holy mackerel, you know. So I go out there and I'm going like that and it's so I finally got off and looked underneath and there's a lot of lumber underneath there, you know, that would, so wouldn't pull forward rocks on the back. And so I get out there
43:49 pushing that over and the water takes it like this. Oh, you know, because no one told me the water is gonna be that vicious, you know. So, and then it hit another one where they said, just push it over, you know, and, and it'll set in place and I put it right here and I'm trying to grab the thing and the water keeps pushing this thing up and down and you're trying to reach underneath, you know. And so it can be quite an experience.
44:18 I just, I just finished this. This is, this one is, uh, just out of, uh,
44:25 store twine. They call it. I don't know if you, I don't know if you remember store twine back when I was growing up, you ordered groceries and you put them in a box and when the box is overflowing, they put the lid, the lid staying straight up, they got this grocery twine and they wrapped around two or three times and tied it. And so that's what this is. It just is mainly for a, for a demo,
44:49 it fits on about a,
44:52 about a 12 ft hoop which is probably about like this. We can fish with hoops up to where I fish on a the river in, in central Oregon. Uh We, we can use up to a 16 ft hoop, which means I could walk over and I could just go like this and walk into the, to the net to the hoop and some of the,
45:18 uh,
45:24 this is one where we fish up by the falls and made for a 16 ft hoop. And it is tapered.
45:34 I worked 8 to 5. And when I would go down to fish, I, I would miss fish. So I kept thinking, how am I gonna make this better? So I got this how to make a netbook, even though my uncle had taught me how to make one. And so I thought I'm gonna, I'm gonna get greedy. So I made the net real big on the bottom. So pull them by here and, and I can see the fish going down the river.
45:58 It was so big. The fish had turn around and come out.
46:03 So then I went back and I made, so I made it tapered a little bit. So then when the fish come in, they hit the back, then they're, they're, they're hooked up for a split second. So I was able to catch more fish. So then I just as my nets got longer. I just started using the same tape and, uh, there isn't that many fish. So a lot of stuff that I,
46:26 that I learned that I have, I watch other fishermen fish like the tide out that holds the hoop right up against the bank when you go up there and, and you're waiting for your turn to fish with some of these guys and, and you can feel the fish bump, you know, and it bump again, you know. So you say, well, are you gonna move it? And I say, well, what are you gonna move for? They'll go in it eventually, you know? I mean, that's,
46:51 that's not the way to set it is. So, a lot of times I go up there while they're sitting there and just talk to them and I reach on the back and grab that tight out wire and then I just pull on it,
47:03 you know? Ok. Well, I won't tell them nothing because they know how to fish. So when they leave, I'll just adjust it my way and then I catch what I need and then put it back the way, you know, I'm for the fish. I'll be, I'll be truthful. So.
47:21 Pardon me?
47:25 Not really. It, it's, uh, it's all in the mind. Uh, like on a Columbia there, there is no choice because the water is so slow. You know, the water is so slow. You have to have a big, fairly big hoop and the net has to be really long because they get to the back and if you had a set net or something and you're trying to pull it, you know, by the time you start pulling it up, the fish have got so big a time to, uh,
47:49 to turn around and they come out. So they, in the Columbia, they, they fish up to 26 30 ft diameter hoops, which I could be like this, you know, and Annette is from here to the end of the stage. You know, and, and it's, it's getting a little tougher, you know, there, there isn't very many places like that to fish. I think the,
48:13 the click at that river, the Deschutes river, the Yakima river a little bit, you know, not too much. Um A lot of places are just dis supreme where you can catch fish.
48:25 But that, that's one of the things I've always been been concerned is uh arguing with our tribe is because like now the fish are not very, there isn't very many numbers but the way that our people fish, you fish, whether there were good years or bad years because what you're doing is you're taking out the weaker strength. So if you close the season completely,
48:50 you got the week strand and you know, you have made a mix. So you delete your, your uh pool.
48:59 I hate to say it Terry, but we're out of, out of time. I know you guys probably have questions for Terry because this is an interesting topic. But um I'm sure Terry can stick around and uh you guys can talk to him and ask questions in the back of the t of many voices if you don't mind. So we can get set up for the next program, which will be York. He will be here to tell his story of the expedition. So, thank you so much.

Tent of Many Voices

Terry Courtney on Columbia River salmon fishing traditions

Terry Courtney

Warm Springs, Wasco

49:27

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Terry Courtney on Columbia River salmon fishing traditions

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