Closed Captions

A panel of Shawnee representatives discusses the impact of forced removal, the Doctrine of Discovery, and efforts to suppress tribal language and religion. Speakers reflect on reconciling traditional Shawnee spirituality with Christianity, the commitment required to participate in tribal ceremonies, and the resilience of Shawnee culture. The conversation also addresses federal recognition, the Ohio Remnant Shawnee, and the role of Native American patriotism within tribal communities.

Transcript

0:03 In that church, there was a cemetery and uh he made reference uh in Tums presentation about religion. And I wanna talk a little bit uh about uh about religion. Let me, let me kind of give you the background though of some of the, some of the things we heard from the speakers today, the United States government, the Doctrine of Discovery had this cover over the Shawnee tribe
0:28 even today with the bi A has some kind of cover over the Shawnee tribe. We heard some things about removal, about uh about, about this dominant nation, putting some, some um not, not only just the physical removal but, but learning from a different culture coming in,
0:49 there was a period in our history where uh where they were trying to take away our language, where they would try to take away our religion and to uh replace that with uh say Christianity religion. I know, I know there are Christians and I know that, that, that, that we still have the, the traditional religions. I heard you guys refer to the traditional uh religions. Can you talk about that? Pas
1:12 for just a minute? I know, I know, several of you participate in the uh traditional, uh the traditions of our tribe. Can you talk a little bit about religion? Also? Let me, let me say something to the audience too. A lot of times in, in Indian world, uh, there are some things that we simply can't talk about now in the, in the, uh for lack of a better word in the, in the, in the dominant language.
1:36 You have history books in the Indian world. We tend to have that down orally. And then there's sometimes our prior to say, you know, really, that's just something we don't talk about. And uh you just learn that by, by participating in the ceremonies, by growing up with the grandfathers and those kinds of things within the limitations of what we can talk about. Uh Can either
2:00 one of you panelists talk a little bit about the Shawnee religion
2:06 from here.
2:08 Uh Like I said, I was raised by, my grandmother, was born in 1870 my dad, 1894 and my great grandmother was born in uh 1843. She lived to be 100 and 10 years old. So I grew up learning the traditional way uh of religion of our show people. And so
2:32 I knew and lived the life that our forefathers lived as far as their relationship with a creator and the relationship with each other uh through the creator. And uh I became a Christian several years ago. And uh I had a problem
2:54 with live trying to live in both worlds. I thought one contradict the other. But we went into a uh bible study session with a guy named Dan Marker who taught us the Tabernacle of the Old Testament, the Tabernacle. Uh Many of, you know,
3:14 it was a tent or a facility uh that moved with millions of people. And within this tent there was uh God lived in, in this tent, you can speak to God. It was a holy place and they use incense, they use cedar, they used uh much like our people. My people use cedar to uh
3:38 purify themselves in, in, in, in religious ways. And uh the study of the Tabernacle helped me to realize the parallel of our traditional ways and uh the Old Testament ways. So I felt comfortable living in both worlds. And uh
4:04 it's been a blessing for me to be able to do that because I always felt guilty when I went to church of my traditional ways of forsaking them and then vice versa. When I went to the traditional ways, I felt like I was betraying my Christian ways. But uh there's art bred dances. I can elaborate a little bit on it. Uh
4:28 We call it the dance. It's, it's not really a celebration, fun time. It's our connection time with our creator. We have one in the spring and one in the fall we offer, we put uh offering as much as it did in the Old Testament, offering to our creator. And we do the same thing. And uh like I said, we do one in the spring,
4:51 asking for a good growing season or a good summer to come. And we have one in the spring, thanking him for what he has provided for us through the summer. And uh there's a 12 songs and the 12 disciples of the Bible. And again, the parallel of both
5:12 made my wife and I comfortable in living in both worlds. So we can go and do our tradition ways and we can do our church ways and our country,
5:25 the rest of speakers, everything they had on religion. Well, the only thing that I would say is uh I was not raised tradition. My grandfather uh was the last one in our family that was raised uh around the tribal religion, ceremony and language. As a matter of fact, my father uh who was born on his father's enlightenment in a one room house on a dirt floor,
5:49 went on uh to graduate from O US. Law school was a district attorney, was a state representative and state senator and practiced law for 52 years no longer. And when the ceremonial elders approached me uh to run for the Cherokee Tribal council because of our effort to try to be recognized separately. Again. Uh At
6:13 that time, uh uh our tribal historian, Vic Doherty named me and I became uh involved with the tribal ceremonies and, but I'll have to tell you that, that to be involved then that uh for the last 15 years, I have not missed one of, of our tribes ceremonial
6:36 uh dances. Uh And out of that 15 years, uh I've only been asked to dance uh on two occasions after 15 years. And before you're completely accepted into the ceremony, it takes uh years and years of commitment and a lot of the, the uh ceremonial of elders are people that are committed to
7:01 uh the tribe's uh ceremony and religion first. I mean, it comes before job and before family. And, and, and I also must say that that the majority of the ceremonial elders at White Oak, which is, which really the White Oak ceremonial grounds is uh is uh inner tribal because there's as many Eastern Chinese that,
7:24 that uh practice their religion and their ceremonies there as there are loyals, although it's was, was uh within the loyals, uh the place where the loyals were set there by the. But there still is some conflict in that group between whether you can accept Christianity and, and uh and be pure and, and, but the majority of people that,
7:47 that participate are Christians. But there are still a few holdouts that believe that that, that they cannot be Christians and still still honor their ceremonies. But I do want to, it that it, it takes a tremendous commitment that most young people and most assimilated people like I was uh uh have a hard time making and,
8:10 and uh therefore, it's a big job uh uh for our tribe uh to, to get young people interested in, in the commitment. I mean, the commitment which means no matter what it is, when it's time to go, you have to drop everything and be there, questions from the audience. So,
8:30 yeah, I wanted to ask a couple of questions about the, the bicentennial and the signature event. Uh First for this event, um you're being brought back to a place that you were expelled from and there, there's got to be some kind of mixed feelings about that. And second, the official sponsor of this is a group called the um Ohio Remnant of the
8:55 Shawnee. And I was wondering how this connected with uh your major tribal structure. So the first question was, what was it was about coming back from uh to, to the area you've been expelled from for the purpose of the signature death. OK. Thomas first question, coming back home to a place that was uh
9:18 where our forefathers once grown. Uh
9:23 I don't have any uh qualms about it, I guess. Uh It's been so long ago that my uh relative lived here. So, uh you know, it's been 100 of years uh since I've lived here. So, uh I don't feel any animosity whatsoever towards
9:44 uh this area where the people had moved us because uh I am thankful that it was America instead of uh maybe Russia or somebody. And I'm proud to be American. I'm proud to be a member of the Shawnee nation and I'm proud to be absentee Shawnee. So I have no, no qualms about coming back to this area. I don't have any resentment in my heart.
10:10 Ken makes an excellent point there that uh around the world, the United States is looked at as the model of how to handle for indigenous people. Now we study our own history and think it was atrocious. But Canada New Zealand and Australia look to our case law. Some of the thing, you know, Johnson V mcintosh, the doctor of Discovery was just decided in Australia about 10 years ago in the Mabo case.
10:35 So they, you know, never mind what our history was but the rest of the world when the Indians are still being killed in Brazil right now. And in Ecuador and the mining companies that are just displacing these people. I think those native wish that they were being treated like the ones we were here. But yes, what a history we have uh As far as me coming here. Well, I've lived in Oregon my entire life. My mom's entire family moved to the West Coast
10:59 to work in the shipyards during World War two. And so even Oklahoma is not home to me. I've been there to our power. I think about three times. But we've seen the cemetery where the family is. We've seen the house where my mom was born and, and that sort of thing. But, uh, I just like to add another state to the list of states I've ever been to the Kentucky, so I have no animosity at all.
11:23 Well, the only thing I would say is, and Bob and I talked about this a little bit earlier. Uh, I mean, history tells us uh certain things about Jefferson and about his plans uh uh for Indian tribes. Uh But part of history tells us that he was compassionate towards the Indians and he cared about the Indians. He and he had opinions about slavery and various other things about,
11:48 about how human beings should be treated. Uh But at the same time, uh he was, was the impetus for the whole idea of moving the tribes uh west of the Mississippi and finally, uh towards extinction which, which uh I mean, some people think it means extinction of the Indians.
12:11 But I think it was more extinguishing their way of life and assimilating them where they were no different than Europeans, uh which uh people now realize it's impossible and pretty well happened, but the tribes were really fairly resilient uh and are really finding a way to live in both worlds
12:31 and even, and give ways to their young people to recapture those parts they've lost. Uh But I mean, I don't think modern day, uh, Shawnees have a lot of animosity about past. As a matter of fact, there is a strong tradition of patriotism among the Indian people in the service. And the US military is a really a badge, uh, of, of, uh,
12:56 because almost all powwows and Indian ceremonies start by honoring the veterans and the tribe. Uh, and there's go dancing societies, uh, uh, all over the country that are made up of, of veterans and, and uh and so forth, Indians are, are even more patriotic than, than I would say the average American and it has,
13:20 has a higher percentage per capita of people who serve in the military and make the military's career. So, so as far as animosity towards Americans, I don't believe it exists. But one thing that I always like to point out now there was a, a divergence even among Chinese as we talked today that were very traditional uh conservative Shawnees that at,
13:42 at the first encroachment of white feathers would move on. Uh And those uh groups uh never wanted their land to be allotted, they wanted to own it in several as one whole tribe uh and live the way they lived. Uh And at the same time, there were Chinese uh who got involved uh in commerce,
14:03 through trading and trapping and various other things with Europeans. And while they didn't become assimilated, they still practice their language and their culture and religion, they still were involved in commerce and, and, and with other groups and some of them became very successful with that, but in the end, both suffered the same fate.
14:25 Uh So when people tell you that the reason why the Indians had to be moved west and finally extinguished because they weren't using the land to its highest and best use. I mean, I submit to you that the Indians actually brought civilization to every place they went and it became less stable and less civilized in the period,
14:49 right after Indians were removed and settled, moved in. Uh And that is I, I mean, I'll go back to uh the Cherokees. I served in the Cherokee Council and actually in, in Northeastern Oklahoma, the Cherokee Nation, they had a banking system, a court system, law enforcement, uh businesses and commerce.
15:09 Uh and women had as many rights for education and opportunities as men. They were far beyond the time of, of, of the settlers that, that came in there. Uh And after statehood, uh the Cherokee nation went from a very stable government uh that took care of everybody uh to, to chaos
15:31 and it took a decade or more before Northeastern Oklahoma was a stable that was in the Cherokee nation. And I think there are similar stories uh uh almost every place that Chinese went. Why they were very traditional Chinese. There also were Chinese that were very successful in bridging the gap. But nevertheless, they suffered the same fate. They lost their land in the move.
15:55 You know, Greg talked about, uh, uh, these two world things and I, I understand there's a pow law here in town and, uh, if you go to that powwow, I don't know who it is or who's sponsored on. Uh, the first song is, is all these, uh, uh, Indian dancers come in. It's called a Grand Injury song. But the following three songs, uh, the second song that you hear us sing, it's called a veteran song. Like Greg said, the
16:20 people very proud uh of that uh of that uh heritage and being a part of America and fighting. Uh The next, the next song is called a memorial song that not only remembers all the soldiers who have fallen, but all the people uh that, that have gone before us. And then the third song is sometimes called a victory song,
16:39 but it's to retire the colors. So there's that one part of being a part of America. Now, before this powwow ever started, uh in all probability, early this morning, something, the powwow committee went out there with cedar or something and blessed the ground, no fanfare, no people around, no press around, no a and, and as they, as they smoked the ground as we said and,
17:03 and said their prayers and hoping for a great powwow. I mean, an example of their living in today's world have been proud of America and, and also keeping our traditional telling anybody what we're doing, not just going out and doing it early in the morning to bless those grounds. So I haven't forgot your second question, but it looked like you had a follow up question. That first one that is not really. Ok. So,
17:28 ok, why don't, uh, because you have two questions, I'm not going, why don't you go ahead and ask the question and then I'll ask that question. Go ahead, sir. Oh, well, this is for sure. I've admired your ancestor to come so, so much for a long time. I just wondered if you grew up with oral traditions, stories about him still preserved within the family or do you have a favorite biography of him?
17:51 I got what I the Buyer Trail that is to over the,
17:57 I can remember my grandmother and grandfather them talking about uh a great chief to come and his role, especially my great grandmother because she was born in 1843. So some of her stories was fairly fresh uh because he died in 1813. So I'm sure her parents related many stories to her. I,
18:23 I heard many stories about the culture from her.
18:27 OK. Now let me address, uh let me wait, address his, his question. Uh He had, he had talked about another faction of the Shawnees called the women B of, of Ohio. And uh this is a group of Shawnees who uh who, who uh remained at Shawnees or whatever, they're not federally recognized. Uh, I think, I think everybody up here was federally recognized but let me just say something, uh, about federally recognized and that sort of
18:52 thing. One of the other beautiful people and I met many this morning. One of the other beautiful people this morning I met was, uh, morning Louis. Is that such good morning, Morning Mark and, and Morning Mark. There's no doubt, you know, her heart she's in there from, from all our practices and, and she was talking about how she's, she's having, having some difficulty right now, getting on the road. You know,
19:13 when, when this country was again, when this country was being born and moved, uh, there was a gathering of soldiers somewhere and you had to come and register, uh, to, to, to be on the road and in that day and time, I mean, uh, it, it's for some people and then people were looked down upon and considered lazy, considered drunkards, considered whatever back in those times.
19:36 And some people did not choose to be on that road. Now, in, in 2003, 2004, we have these people called federally recognized, the people that signed up for that, that road. That doesn't mean that, that there isn't many brothers and sisters who, who aren't Indian. They're not, they're not in, they're Indian in their heart and we certainly consider them Indian. Uh, but this panel here is a, is a federally recognized, uh, panel and I know
20:01 the Shawnees, uh, the Shawnee nation just become federally recognized. I had the opportunity to meet the remnants. Yesterday. I, I went down to, uh, the, uh, to the 10, uh, they treated me great. We saw them again at dinner at night. Uh, our brothers and sisters and I, and I guess the question is how, how we feel about that, uh, you know, uh they're, they're great people. I, I love, I, I consider my brothers and sisters and,
20:25 but this particular panel is a federally recognized shining people in Oklahoma. You have a question. Yes, it has a lot of really good. Also. Um My name is Robin Vaughan. I'm system mob in Dakota, S of the South, northeast corner of South Dakota. I've lived here in Kentucky for five years and I run a Native American organization. Our, our, our program tries to help native Americans to move off the reservation,
20:49 cover the urban areas, um assimilating to this environment. But we also try to keep our culture and we keep our traditions and a lot of times we have a society of sun dancers and we have a, we have these people that we go home and we take part in our ceremonies and we know our songs and our traditions. But we have also another organization that we, that we deal with,
21:13 that we have problems with and we don't have Shawnee in our area and we have a lot of people that claim Cherokee heritage. We are very, you know, and, and that we know of, I don't know the Sha Shawnee people and their traditions, but the remnants I have been asked, people, are they, what they do is this original Shawny? You know, the women, uh, have, um,
21:37 rattles and they shake the rattles behind the drums and sing with the men and I believe it's almost in vocables and I know they don't, you don't know the language or whatever. I know the, the power that goes on. I know those people, I've worked with those people. I know that they are also remnants of, or descendants and that they are not familiar and, and you may not hear all three songs that you were talking about and they have it in their hearts.
22:02 But there's something about carrying on our traditional ways to, you know, I know that there is a separation between federally recognized or people of blood and, and people of descended here in the Kentucky, Ohio, Indiana area. I, I know this because I've dealt with them. I've lived with them. But what he's asking is if we go and we watch what they're doing, are we seeing authentic,
22:26 are we seeing something from the shiny people that, are they, uh, are they, um, following traditional, uh, traditional ways of your people or have you seen them yet? Everyone has that information. You know, I mean, I, I can say uh there are people from our tribe that have come to Ohio and have interacted with them. And, and
22:51 I would only say that there's a lot of hesitance because, and, and Ken mentioned it, I mean, there are things that Shawnees are only supposed to tell the Shawnees. Uh And my experience has been, they're very careful even about which Shawnee they share some of those things with. And so among the traditional ceremonial community, there is a lot
23:14 of hesitation about uh people that perform ceremonies and present themselves as, as, as doing it because first of all, as Ken mentioned, I mean, the majority of, of the things are not for public, I mean, they're not written about, they're not published. And so the place for you to find out is from another Shawnee.
23:37 Uh And that's when you're ready to find those things out, when you're, when they believe you're prepared to know those things. And there is some question in, in the Indian communities in Oklahoma, how these people arrived at that. And, and there's a belief too that, that there you have individual Indians,
23:59 but there is a relationship between the tribe and the Indian. And if you aren't governed by the tribe, if you aren't a part of that tribal community, uh that practices that language and culture and religion, uh then they might not be able to separate, some people feel like to separate those two. It is hard to do. And it goes back to the fact that,
24:21 that the, I know there are the, the definition of an Indian, even by the federal government, there are more than one definition of an Indian. But that these federally recognized tribes in Oklahoma are lineal heirs of the Shawnees. And a lot of it is taken from, from meticulous records that was, were kept by the government in order to keep track of us. Uh But, but everybody that's a member of our federally
24:45 recognized tribes have been able to prove that. And uh if I know so, I mean, some people uh do have shining blood, but we'll never be able to prove it. But Ken and I are both on the enrollment committees of our tribe. Uh And there are people that we have to turn away that we feel in our hearts may be Shawny but, but the, the tribe
25:09 requires that we make everyone prove it and not make exceptions. And so there's uh you know, uh we can't decide who he is or isn't. And this is not with blood, this is, this is with, with ceremonies. I was given a card that said, and I know better than this. I am a medicine man. This is my name. You need me. You know,
25:33 I know that my, among my people, if you're a medicine man, medicine men are stay on the reservation, you go to him, he doesn't go out and make house calls, you know, unless you know, under certain circumstances. But I, in this um situation, I talked to men, uh w a man killer who said if they're Cherokee medicine people, they, they usually speak their language. They usually
25:56 um in, in Oklahoma, the people know them, you know, they're well known by the Cherokee people. And, and, and so with the Shawnee is in our, in our, amongst our people, our, our medicine people speak the language. They, they live amongst the people and they, you know, is that the same with the Shawnee people? Let me say this because we got three minutes to figure out.
26:18 But first off, I honor you for your work because there's most of our tribal members are not in our, our reservations that come to urban areas and you guys, you know, your good jobs like you take care of guys. I can't tell you how much we appreciate you coming here, inviting us, treating us with the hos hospitality that you have. And I turn this back over to our sponsor Amy and
26:41 we thank you for allowing to come to tell our story. And I think it just
26:51 in closing, I just want to say thank you. I, I can't thank enough our Shawnee representatives who are here today to share the Shawnee perspective. And again, we're getting into some questions where we, we don't have enough time and two hours to answer all these questions that people have and what we saw today. It's a, a one aspect of Shawnee history and culture and
27:15 we could spend days talking about only the Shawnee. And to think of all the tribes that we have along the trail and the incredible stories and all the different aspects of the cultures that we are learning about from now until 2000 six. And this bicentennial has just begun. This is only the second signatory that we have 13 more to learn about all of the
27:40 tribes that Lewis and Clark encountered from here all the way out to the West Coast. And again, to remind you that most of those tribes were on the other side of the continental divide. But the stories are incredible and.

Tent of Many Voices

Shawnee Speakers on Religion, Removal, and Dual Identity

Shawnee

27:52

Search the Database

Shawnee Speakers on Religion, Removal, and Dual Identity

Our Partners