Closed Captions Audio Described

A panel discussion featuring Nez Perce speakers—Allen Pinkham, Brian McCormack, Crystal White, and Cynthia Blackeagle—exploring the historic 1831 delegation of four Nez Perce men to Saint Louis to meet General William Clark. Speakers address pre-contact Nez Perce history, reasons for the journey, the deaths of two warriors, the monument erected at Calvary Cemetery, and ongoing efforts to document this transformative event in tribal and American history.

Transcript

0:06 [Offscreen] Good afternoon. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Tent of Many Voices. This tent is part of a traveling exhibit that has been following the Lewis and Clark Trail since January of 2003. Most of you have been here before and you know that we are a traveling exhibit following the trail and we're delighted to be here and thank you very much for inviting us.
0:28 We do have program schedules out on the back of our sandwich board and we also have some schedules for the event that's going on the uh
0:41 get our program schedule up here. A summer of peace with the Nimiipuu So be sure that you pick these up. Look at them, don't take them as totally correct because these were printed two weeks ago and there's lots of changes. If you want the most up to date schedule, our schedule for the Tent of Many Voices is kept on our front desk in the next tent over.
1:05 So stop by there and make sure that the programs you want to see are still on the schedule and update your schedule as well. So with that, I'd like to thank you all for coming. And I'd like to introduce our panelist the program. This hour is a visit with William Clark and our speakers, Cynthia Blackeagle, Allen Pinkham, Brian McCormack
1:29 and Crystal White. So let's please make them welcome.
1:42 Good afternoon. My name is Brian McCormack. Uh I'm an enrolled member of the Nez Perce tribe. I'm also uh a licensed landscape architect. I own my own firm here in the valley. Um I do a lot of work on cultural projects for Indian tribes throughout the Northwest. Um Anyway, uh a few years ago, most Americans had never heard of Black Eagle
2:03 Speaking Eagle, No-Horns-on-His-Head or Rabbit-Skin-Leggings. They are the delegation of foreign Nez Perce men in that traveled to Saint Louis Missouri in the fall of 1831. Um today, we, we are going to talk about this incredible journey 100 and 75 years ago this year that forever changed the course of Nez Perce and American history. And we're gonna start off with Allen Pinkham.
2:27 He's gonna give us a little uh background of, of Nez Perce history before 1831.
2:34 All right. Thank you, Brian. Uh I just wanted to set the stage here for some of the events that came, you know, after Lewis and Clark and even prior you know, the Nesper people had lived in this area for since time immemorial. You know, that's way beyond tribal memory. And
2:56 what this actually means was that we were created right here in this country. Our creation story is up river at Kamiah at the heart of the monster. Some of you may have seen it, but this is the where we were created from the blood and the water and the earth and the light. And then uh so this is how we came to be where there's no oral history that says that we came from anywhere else.
3:21 We were always here from the beginning of time when the creation of the earth was done by the Creator. And, and so we're here at, at, at our country. This is a country that we were given to live in, to, to our, do our life, to live our lives right here in this country along the Snake River,
3:45 the Salmon River, the Clearwater River, Imnaha, the Palouse river, all these drainages where we were and we're still here today. And so when these new kinds of people came to us, you know, we described it
4:03 and they're coming, we are [speaks Nimipuutímt]
4:07 this is what we called it, this event this coming of the white people or the white man. We are [speaks Nimipuutímt] this is what this term means, the coming of these strange people and, and they came and how can we not know about how these people came to this earth? You know, we always knew things
4:32 and the way we knew things is that we traveled this continent, this island, you know, we traveled to the north to where the Great Lake is and where it's cold all year long. And we traveled to the south where the country is hot all year long. And of course, we went to the Pacific Ocean of Puget Sound area and there are stories of us traveling,
4:57 there was a Nez Perce man, his name was Tahoma.
5:01 And when you go to Puget Sound, the Puget Sound people call Mount Rainier, Tahoma. So this is how this Nez Perce name was given to him because he was a runner that went between here and the Puget Sound. And he would go run by this mountain. So he was given that name Tahoma. And
5:24 this is way before we even acquired the horse. And then we go east to the Great Lakes where the uh red pipe stone was and there we would gather the uh pipe stone and we'd bring it back. And so there was a traveling and a trade system way before 1492.
5:47 And before we acquired the horse. And so so we, we knew the country and then one and then to look at this in a practical sense, how could we not know of a strange kind of people that came in 1492 for 300 years prior to Lewis and Clark?
6:10 How could we not know about that? If we travel this island, we would have found out about these people and there are stories of us traveling. There's um story of a man traveling for 20 years and he came back and he gave us all kinds of stories
6:33 and I'm sure he would have brought back news about what he had seen.
6:39 And so those are the kind of stories that exist. So now we know that these kinds of people exist that in and my father used to tell me we describe them before we seen them.
6:52 They would speak a language we never heard before.
6:56 Their, their eyes would be like fish. And uh some of them would have their faces on upside down.
7:06 And what that meant was beards and mustaches and bald on top. So if you fit that description, you know who you are.
7:15 And, and so these are the kinds of stories that told us that yes, we, we were here and the new kind of people came
7:24 and even in a practical sense, there were three Nez Perce at Fort Mandan in 1804. Why were we there? We, we went there to find out what's going on. And so he knew Lewis and Clark were coming, we knew more about Lewis and Clark than they knew about us. And so when we travel like this, we they, they would always bring news back,
7:48 you know what, what's happening, what's going on, all these new people or they're coming when they come among us, they will turn our world over and what that meant was that when they come, they'll plow the ground and they'll turn it over. That's what that means. And so these are the kinds of stories that would come to us. And so when Lewis and Clark had came, of course,
8:11 it wasn't a great event like they put on right now, you know, this bicentennial, you know, to us, Lewis and Clark is a minor incident, but it is in this great change that was coming. And when we see Lewis and Clark write in their journals, how do they do that? How can they transfer knowledge like this? And so we said we need to find out how to do that.
8:37 So in 1822 three young Nez Perce men were sent to Red River District in Canada to the missionaries up there. I believe it was the Jesuits. And so we sent them up there, two of them died, but one came back, his name was Ellis. And, and uh so he learned how to read and write and then the uh
9:02 after Lewis and Clark, of course, we wanted to find out more because they had the technology that we didn't have the ability to make glass and metal. And particularly we are very interested in, in uh how do you make powder and how do you make the lead balls that, that uh shoot the game? See, we had six muzzle loaders when Lewis and Clark came to our country here, we already had the muzzle loaders,
9:27 but we ran out of powder and ball. So how do you find out how to do these things? Well, you treat these guys pretty good. So the ultimate decision was not to kill Lewis and Clark because they had this technical knowledge that we did not have and the ability to read and write.
9:46 And so as things went on after 1822 then it became, you know, a conflict between two cultures. In 1813, the first conflict that we experienced with these men in our, in our area was down here at the mouth of Palouse river. An Indian was killed by uh one of the traders.
10:12 So then hostilities started to occur. And then they said, well, how can we prevent us from having all these problems with the traders and trappers and, and these early settlers that were coming in. And so we need, we need to go look for the one that would help us and his name happened to be William Clark of the
10:37 Lewis and Clark expedition. So now we were trying to solve our problems. So we went to St. Louis
10:46 in 1831 and the names of these men are, were just given to you. So, so this is the stage, this is the beginning of this great change that's coming to us. We knew that these, this was going to happen because the prophecies or the foretelling of these events were brought back. I can imagine by the men
11:08 and those family groups that traveled out to the Great Plains and passed Tahoma and then to the southwest where we found another kind of human being that wore hats and they wore little blankets and they called themselves Spanish. So, so these things are the things that were setting up this trip of 1831. And that's why this committee is here.
11:33 And I'd like to pass the microphone on to someone else here. Thank you.
11:45 OK.
12:02 The four Nez Perce warriors traveled from present day Idaho to St. Louis in 1831 an expedition very similar to that of Meriwether Lewis and William Clark 25 years earlier, when the Nez Perce arrived in Saint Louis, they sought out General William Clark, then the Superintendent of Indian Affairs for the Missouri River country and the Pacific Northwest.
12:22 In mid October 1831 the party arrived in Saint Louis. Bishop Rosati wrote a detailed, a very biased account of their stay on December 31st, 1831 several other colorful accounts have been given regarding the delegation stay in Saint Louis. However, the underlying concept was that these four warriors were there to ask that the people of Saint Louis give them something connected with religion. And more importantly, education,
12:47 nobody in Saint Louis spoke the Nez Perce language and thus all communication was done via sign language. Therefore, the people of Saint Louis could not completely understand the specifics of the Nez Perce request.
13:00 Having been exposed to new ailments and lacking immunization. The elder two warriors, Black Eagle and Speaking Eagle, also known as Man-of-the-Morning. Sickened, died and were buried a few weeks after their arrival in Saint Louis. Prior to their deaths, both were given Catholic rights and were buried in the Catholic cemetery. Their remains were relocated several times and were finally laid to
13:24 rest in a then unmarked mass grave at Calvary Cemetery.
13:30 After the deaths of Black Eagle and Speaking Eagle No-Horns-on-His-Head and Rabbit-Skin-Leggings dropped from sight on March 26th, 1832 they left on the steamer Yellowstone, an American fur company boat. They met up with George Catlin who painted them while aboard ship. According to an account by Catlin, No-Horns-on-His-Head succumbed to disease. Soon following the Yellowstone's arrival at Fort Union,
13:54 Rabbit-Skin-Leggings was left to return home alone. He crossed the Montana plains and met up with the Nez Perce at a camp in the buffalo country. Later that fall, he was killed in a fight with the Blackfeet on the headwaters of the salmon river while Rabbit-Skin-Leggings did not return with teachers in tow. This one event was a catalyst sparking the missionary movement in the West. While the reason for the journey is debated even today,
14:19 this remarkable undertaking forever changed the face of Western history.
14:35 Thank you Crystal. What I'm gonna talk about is we installed a monument in Saint Louis a few years ago. And I'm gonna talk a little bit about the history of that monument. And the committee um in April 2001 Crystal here presented a proposal to an audience at the Nez Perce National Historical Park in Spalding to create a monument in Saint Louis to honor the four Nez Perce men.
14:58 After the lecture, many Nez Perce tribal members, including some of the descendants came together to form a committee
15:14 too far away. Ok.
15:17 There we go.
15:19 Um And here's a picture of our committee members there. The goal of this, this new committee was to assist Crystal in writing grants, fundraising, planning and design, and the proposed Nez Perce monument.
15:35 OK. The actual monument is about 8 ft tall. It's made of granite. It is symbolizing two eagle feathers. It is on a base and on that base where we had uh the text written approximately two thirds of the cost was covered by several grants. It was about $42,000 to build this thing. There remaining third of the project. The money was raised through t-shirt and program sales,
15:59 private and church group donations, raffle proceeds and some money from the Nez Perce tribe.
16:15 Uh The committee spent several months writing and editing the text that would wrap around the granite base. There are four distinct panels facing the cardinal directions that each deliver a different message the first one names the four warriors including their Nez Perce names. The second one here is a tribute to all the unknown people that share the mass grave with the two warriors.
16:40 The third panel tells the story of the Ford nest post warriors, including several possible explanations of why they traveled to Saint Louis, which is what you heard about earlier.
16:52 And then the fourth panel is a personal tribute from Albane purse to honor their four ancestors, two of which are buried at the site
17:06 in conjunction with the uh unveiling of our monument. There was a, the committee held a local ceremony at Spalding. After that ceremony, we went over to uh Saint Louis Missouri in March of 2003, the Missouri Historical Society hosted a colloquium titled Conversations with the Nez Perce. Several Nez Perce, Flathead
17:28 and Salish descendants were invited to speak as well as local historians
17:39 following the lectures. We also serve lunch in the museum and the Nez Perce quickly got dressed in the regalia and demonstrated some of our traditional songs and dances. There was a huge crowd there including many children from the local schools throughout the month of March. There was also an exhibit at the museum that featured many personal items from tribal members, including some of their bead work and their corn husk bags.
18:05 The next day, the unveiling of the granite monument took place at Calvary Cemetery which is a huge cemetery outside of Saint Louis. Uh we opened the dedication with the Lord's prayer which you can see here, which was spoken in English and it was signed by Nez Perce descendants
18:31 The local newspaper in Saint Louis estimated there are about 75 Nez Perce descendants that traveled to Saint Louis for a ceremony along with about 100 and 50 people from throughout Saint Louis and beyond, several dignitaries were also there to honor the foreign Nez Perce.
18:46 Currently, we're, our committee is trying to build a monument here in our area. So people will be able to read about the story. Uh We were awarded a challenge cost share grant from the National Park Service and we're gonna be doing a local monument up at Kamiah I at the Tribal Wa-A'Yas Center Uh We're probably gonna start that maybe next month after we get all the paperwork signed at the park service. So hopefully,
19:11 we, hopefully, by the end of the year, we'll get this monument done. We're gonna do some interpretive signs in a native plant garden. And what we're hoping to do is hopefully have a series of interpretive signs on tribal lands that can tell our own history for visitors to see. Uh Right now I'd like Cynthia to talk about some of her perspectives of the events and her family's uh comments about this whole process.
19:40 Good afternoon. I'm Cynthia Black Eagle. I have one daughter, Shannon and one grandson Lorenzo
19:50 uh you don't want to boast. But Black Eagle is one of my ancestors on my father's side and on my mother's side is Speaking Eagle, but my famousest warrior is No-Horns-on-His-Head.
20:09 Um We have so much rich history among the Nez Perce, but it's so wonderful to know that they were impelled to venture out, to know that the world was changing before us. And we needed to um educate ourselves. We knew that was the most important thing is to
20:34 seek education in order to survive. And we have a lot of uh college graduates and even doctors among our Nez Perce people, which I'm very proud of too and honored to know that they too had a had dreams and visions that would uh benefit our people in our survival in the new world.
20:59 Today, we have um doctors that um physical doctors, medical doctors that uh
21:10 are competing in the world and eventually we'll come back to our people. And I feel that this is one of the first steps that our people can take is to, you know, start ta taking care of our own people. And it shows how we survived along the rivers that we took care of our own people through the medicines that we,
21:32 that was handed down to us from our grandparents and great grandparents.
21:38 We drove to um Saint Louis and we could not help but wonder and think, you know,
21:47 these warriors leaving their homes, venturing out not having any idea whatsoever. What is before them, with that strength in their hearts
22:01 was so amazing that, um, they wanted to make a difference for their people and to do that you would have to go out. Our people walked distances, but that's quite a way. Saint Louis is a long way. It's about 1700 miles, about 2000 miles away from here.
22:24 And as we were cruising over there you couldn't help but notice all the casinos
22:30 and I didn't get very lucky. But uh all the casinos that were, uh that we've seen was probably a dream away as they were journeying over to Saint Louis.
22:48 And it was so um amazing to see the people that gather there to uh help us celebrate.
22:57 The warriors did make it. But it's on their way back that we lost, lost two Black Eagle and Speaking Eagle.
23:10 And what was in their hearts at the time? You know, that uh
23:16 whatever they were seeking and felt
23:21 was that achieved before they're dead or did they ever fulfill their dreams and passions
23:31 to make that journey over?
23:37 It was almost like it was a spirit filled ceremony because we sang a very old song that is still that we still sing today. And it's called The Journey Song.
23:53 If there was only two of you here, I would sing it. But I'm kinda, I don't like mics and have stage fright,
24:02 but it was a powerful song that one of our elders led us in which even, you know, our people were very, they had spirituality and that was part of their lives and it still lives today here within our Nez Perce people.
24:37 The opportunity was quite an honor to know that we had brilliant warriors
24:48 that we're ready for this change and wanted to make a difference for their people. And if it meant traveling that far, it has opened the doors for a lot of our people to go and get that education now.
25:07 I feel that they were victorious warriors
25:13 because we are known as the real, real people,
25:19 the Nimiipuu meaning Nez Perce,
25:27 I appreciate everyone here this afternoon. And if you do have any questions, there's a lot of knowledge up here that we can share.
25:38 About the four warriors that um
25:43 made the journey and were successful. Thank you.
25:52 [Offscreen] Wonderful. We do have a question right here. Why don't we start with it?
25:59 [person in foreground] The tradition has been uh among many people that uh the warriors went to Saint Louis to get the book of Heaven and that's been written for a long, long time. And I was wondering why the uh why the uh reason for going to Saint Louis has not been that, I mean, since most people have uh
26:23 have known or for a long, long time, had the idea that they went to Saint Louis to get the book of Heaven, which was the book that the Lewis and Clark had?
26:38 Ok. [NPS Ranger] All right, Allen. Um I'll, I'll answer the question. You know, there is, there is controversy among the Nez Perce that did we go for the Bible or did we go for some other kind of book or did we go to see William Clark to complain about those things that were occurring to us, you know, after 1813.
27:01 And uh there is a little bit of doubt here. But then from my perspective, from my family, particularly my father, he always told me we never went to Saint Louis looking for the Bible. It just wasn't, you know, it didn't occur that way. There. There's a lot of speculation
27:22 that the, the uh Indian sign language for the book is like opening the page of a book, you know, when you lay it out, you open it up this way. Well, no one understood Nez Perce in Saint Louis, you know, so we, you would use sign language and then the book, you know, like you open the book. Well,
27:45 the missionaries got a hold of this and says, oh, these poor savages are looking for the Bible. It really wasn't that, you know, according to my oral history that I received, it was never looking for the Bible. But, but the book is the Book of knowledge. And so if the Bible is considered a book of knowledge,
28:08 then it becomes part of what we were seeking. And from the Bible of course comes a great deal of knowledge. But then the technology of the day is how do you learn how to do the things that we don't have and possess? See that, that's another aspect, Lewis and Clark said that, yeah, we'll send you traders and you'll,
28:32 you'll be able to come and get some of these goods when we send these traders out to you. Well, it never occurred directly. A lot, a lot of the traders came down from Canada. They were not in the United States and there were some coming in from the United States and we call them Boston's because that's where they actually came from Boston, Boston. And
28:58 but the ultimate decision here is uh we weren't looking for the Bible. But what came out of this misunderstanding is the missionaries because there is a letter written by Reverend Spalding.
29:16 But I think it's more of a fabrication than a real authentic, you know, translation of what we really wanted. Well, when, when the missionaries heard of this, they had Reverend Spalding put it down as yes, we went to Saint Louis in 1831 looking for the Bible and there is this controversy. But according to my history,
29:40 we really weren't looking for the Bible. It was the technology of the day is what we really wanted. And how do you get lead and powder, you know, for your uh muzzle loaders. So that's what we really we were looking for.
29:58 [Offscreen] I have a question uh regarding um William Clark's letter that is in the, the Missouri Historical Society. And he's complaining about all the tribes that are coming out of the mountains. Um because it wasn't just the Nez Perce who sent delegates to Saint Louis.
30:21 A number of tribes were doing this because he was the head of the Indian office. And I'm, I'm gonna paraphrase but he was saying something like, you know, uh why, why are they coming to see me as if I have anything to do with their affairs as if I can solve their problems and, you know, forgetting that he had promised uh peace and friendship. And,
30:45 um, I guess if you can elaborate on that and then, um, I know you've mentioned before about, you know, we felt um that there was other reasons that we would have it in well with the United States and yet we were having all this, this murder taking place. So if you can elaborate on that a little bit
31:13 Yeah, it's true. There, there's some, uh, William Clark letters that he had sent to someone. And uh he was in one of the letters that he sent to probably one of his superiors in Washington DC. He says the Indians are coming to Saint Louis to complain of their problems to me and the Nez Perce, all he said about Nez Perce is the ones that we had
31:34 previously met among the, the Rocky Mountains so that he implied that it was us in 1831. But then the Iroquois and some of the eastern tribes are also bringing back problems to him in Saint Louis because the eastern tribal people are being dispossessed and relocated and pushed west because of the settlement coming westward.
31:58 So he was not only getting complaints from the Midwest and Western tribes, he was also getting complaints from the eastern tribes because they were suffering just as much as we were particularly from the epidemics also. Uh So the epidemics at the time measles and smallpox were wiping out populations of tribal people. Very,
32:22 it was a very big impact. And so there was a lot of complaints and uh William Clark being the uh agent Indian agent of the time, you know, and, and from about 1820 up to about 1840 I believe uh he received all these complaints. And so he was, I'm sure he was
32:44 probably inundated with all kinds of complaints because it just wasn't happening to Northwest tribe. It was also happening to the eastern tribe of people as well. So and and then of course, the missionaries taking up the Bible and says, well, we need to go out and, and uh give the enlightenment to these heathen people.
33:09 And of course, this is what Reverend Spalding, you know, uh carried that message and you know, and of course others, Jason Lee and Whitman and a lot of others did the same too, but to different, different tribes. And so the missionary period was very, also very devastating to us because they carried the Bible in one hand
33:33 and then said, well, if you follow the book, you know, you'll be ok. And if you don't follow the Bible, then you'll go to hell. But we, there's no concept in Indian religion or spirituality that there is a hell. So, so there was a contrast in what they were telling us. And of course, Old Joseph then became very disappointed in what
33:58 he was hearing from Whitman and Spalding. And as they just argued about religion among themselves, so old Joseph renounced Christianity, you know, just prior to the war of 1877. And, but another interesting thing here that occurred
34:16 is that Lewis and Clark met Hohots Ilppilp who was Red Bear and there's a lot of descendants of Red Bear. There's hundreds of us, not only the Black Eagles and the Pinkhams and the Carters and the Corbetts, you know, there's hundreds of us descended from this one man called uh Red Grizzly Bear that met Lewis and Clark in 1806.
34:40 And also there's a lot of uh descendants from Twisted Hair. There's about five or 600 of those. So, and these two men are, are uh different Twisted Hair, took up the white man's way and of course his sons did and then Red Bear played both sides, you know, he went to Saint Louis
35:02 in the name of peace, but also some, some of the Red Bear clan took up the Bible as well. So, you know, in my estimation is some of our people took up the Bible to help protect themselves because of the changing times and the dispossession and disenfranchisement that we're undergoing
35:25 one way to seek salvation is to go to the Bible. And I think many of our people did that. So, so there's a real contrast here of and others said, well, no, we wanna live our own way. You know, we, we, we have our own concept of who the creator is and how we should live. And so there's a division among our tribal people in this regard
35:50 and uh that, that came out to be treaty, non treaty and Christian, non-christian uh Nez Perce. So there was a dichotomy here and there was a split of how our people wanted to live their lives and, and that some of that is still present. It's not as bad as it used to be, but it's, it's still around. And uh
36:11 so, so this is the great changing time that I was talking about. The Bible played a great deal in this changing time. Some of it good, some of it bad, just like our prophet prophecy said, when these people come among us, they'll bring bad things and good things to us. So that's what's happened.
36:38 [Offscreen] We do have time for another couple of questions. If any of you have a question that you'd like to ask, you do have a wealth of knowledge up here. And, uh, pretty amazing. I would like to ask about your memorial that you're planning and that's gonna be in Kamiah? And your funding is there. Do you have your plans?
37:02 What, what's your status of your memorial statue for Kamiah? What, what stages have you gotten to with that?
37:13 Uh What we've done so far is we just were notified in April from the park service about the challenge cost share. So we're still working on the contracts for that. Um After we, after we do that, we'll probably get started on the design phase and Chris and I worked on several interpreter projects uh mostly in Oklahoma and Kansas. But what we'll do is we have set up an advisory committee that helps us
37:38 determine what text we're gonna talk about. And plus our Saint Louis Warriors committee that's already in, in existence will help us determine what we're gonna talk about. What we've initially thought about is we're gonna do two panels. We're not gonna actually do another monument like we shown because that was really expensive. But what we wanna do is more like interpretive panels and on one of the signs, we wanna talk about the history of the warrior, uh the four Nez Perce warriors that went over there.
38:03 And then on the other panel, we want to actually talk about the monument and everything that's happened over in Saint Louis since we built that thing, that monument has become very popular and almost famous at Saint Louis. Um That cemetery is very popular. Uh I guess they do tours through there and it's become like their number one stop on their tour through the cemetery. So,
38:25 but in, in conjunction with this uh project in Kamiah, we also want to do a, a Nez Perce native plant garden just to highlight some of our uh traditional plants. We're not gonna really talk about their uses. But I think we just so we can do some uh future interpretive sites up there at Kamiah so there's really a lack of interpretation from a tribal perspective just throughout our reservation.
38:48 So we wanna start with that project there. [Offscreen] Awesome. [Offscreen] Couple of questions. Let's take those real quickly.
38:58 You just thought of a good idea, Brian, why don't you get those tour guides in Saint Louis to charge an extra buck? And they can uh get you some money for another nifty monument in Kamiah to add to your interpreter signs. There's an awful lot of people over there that, you know, would probably donate something.
39:21 Yeah, that's probably true. I mean, it's actually even won some awards um Crystal, maybe we talk about that. But um so it's a Catholic. Yeah, and she can talk more about that. I mean, um but I mean, I know the guys that actually built the monument have submitted it to like a headstone award thing and they've won, you know, like the national award. And so, no, we didn't actually get credit sometimes. So,
39:47 so that's kind of just frustrating for us living way over here. So
39:53 actually I have a question for Crystal. Uh and maybe you could elaborate on that Crystal, what he said. But um I'm really curious about um your research um on Saint Louis and how difficult it was for them to communicate. And I think that's important to talk about because
40:14 when you read that letter that was supposedly translated from the Nez Perce who were there, the delegates, um you know, the, it, to me, I don't understand how they could have possibly have said what's in that letter based upon what, what little they could communicate on. And I guess the other thing that really bothers me is that,
40:39 and I think what may have occurred is just me, um thinking that uh because one of them or two of them had a Catholic, right when they died. And of course, you would be thankful for someone helping you as you're uh in that sacred time of leaving this earth. And, um, you know, he, they may have just, you know,
41:04 assumed, you know, there he was, he could have been saying, yeah, our people need help. You know, they're, they're being murdered or whatever and, and the, the Catholic priest may have, you know, actually started that, I don't know. I, but if you could talk about those two things, I think The letter are you, do you mean the one that uh Rabbit-Skin-Leggings or No-Horns
41:26 that is widely disputed for exactly the reasons that you said nobody there spoke Nez Perce. So if it actually occurred and actually most of them spoke French that wrote it down. So for it to get to English, it would have had to have gone from sign to French to English whoever wrote it down. However, interpretation. So as far as the historical field, um it's
41:50 a nice nifty little thing, but it's not really given a lot of credit as being something that can be proven to have happened. A lot of people have said they heard this happened. But as far as those who actually have come forward and said, yes, we witnessed it. There really isn't the documentation for that. Um As far as the Catholic rites go, the two men were actually nursed by Clark's wife
42:13 and um it was a highly Jesuit community. So if they hadn't been giving Catholic rights, they would have been put in a pauper's grave because there was no other option. So for them to have been given that right, it was actually a really nice and caring thing for that to have been done. Assumptions aside, it allowed them to be buried at the
42:36 cathedral, which is where downtown Saint Louis by the arch. So if they hadn't been given the rights, they would have been in a pauper's grave. For example, Chief Pontiac of the Ottawa is buried in a pauper's grave which is now beneath a parking garage across from the old baseball stadium. So that could have been the fate of these two. Had they not been given those rights?
43:00 Yes, sir.
43:07 On the question on um on religion, uh Allen, you were saying that uh two people went up to Canada to learn how to speak the white man's language or sign language to be able to communicate with these people. Was this before the religion came into it.
43:29 Uh Yeah, it, and um the, the thing that my father would tell me is that we wanted to learn how to read and write. And at Red River in Canada, it was a, it was a mission that taught how to read and write. And of course, the Bible came in with that association as well too. So religion is connected in that way.
43:52 But uh and there were 3, 2 died at the school and then one survived and he came back and he could read and write. His name was Ellis and he became important in the treaty making process in Walla Walla in 1855 because he could read and write and he was a Nez Perce. So, but his notes have never been found.
44:15 You know, it would be very interesting if we could find his journal or the notes in this treaty negotiation in 1855. Because none of those notes have ever, there were probably three or four Nez Perce that could read and write at the time of 1855.
44:38 All right. One other question here.
44:46 It's probably a silly question. But I don't know. Did the Nez Perce have horses before Lewis and Clark came there? I, I don't know my history that good. And did they, those four chiefs then travel by horse then, or did they walk to uh Saint Louis?
45:05 Well, my understanding is that yes, we had the horse at the time of Lewis and Clark. And in his journals of Lewis and Clark, he described uh horses among the Nez Perce are very colored, you know, they have a lot of color and they're uh like the English courser very similar, very good, uh bred horse that the Nez Perce had. And uh we uh practiced gelding at the time.
45:31 So we would eliminate of course the stallions that weren't as good as the others. So, and that's why the herds became very, um, well developed and we probably got the horse about 1700 you know, uh Francis Haines of, he's another historian of Nez Perce history. He claims about 1730. But
45:54 uh because the trade route between the tribe is so fast and, and we learned about these things very quickly. Uh on my estimation, it wouldn't take more than two decades for the uh horse to come up to the northern plains after the Pueblo Revolt of 1680. So it would only take a couple of decades to get up in the northern plains. And if we,
46:18 and there's, um, if you had seen a strange animal you never seen before, what, what kinds of questions would you ask? You know, what, what good is this animal? Is it like the dog? Um Can you, you know, can, can you pack, can you ride it? You know, it's such a large animal. And of course, we would have learned these things if we were in a Spanish country in,
46:41 in uh probably New Mexico or Arizona in that area. So we would have learned very quickly that this was a good animal that could, you know, travel greater distances with us. And so, uh and that's why I also say uh we acquired the horse much earlier than most people estimate
47:02 because if we travel to, to the southwest, we would have found Spanish horses. And there is um a little story of a Nez Perce man. He went so far south, he's seen a little animal he never seen before. And he called this little animal [speaks Nimipuutímt] and [speaks Nimipuutímt] in Nez Perce means imitator.
47:25 And this animal, this little animal he seen was a monkey. So that's how far south we went. So that would have been well into Oaxaca and maybe, you know that area. So we traveled great distances. But then when a horse we acquired, now there's some tribal people say there was even horses way before Columbus, that the horse was already here. Well,
47:49 there was a prehistoric horse here that, that's been proven. Now, whether that was a horse that we utilized, I don't know. But this European horse, these [speaks Nimipuutímt] the crossed water people brought this animal. And the reason why I related to the dog is that when we call the horse, we call it [speaks Nimipuutímt] and [speaks Nimipuutímt]
48:14 is the dog. So he named the horse the first part of the dog's name. [speaks Nimipuutímt]
48:24 Very similar in sound. So we just named the horse, the short version of the dog. So uh uh once we acquired the horse, then we traveled all over the place. There's a story of a Nez Perce man. He went to a place called Cincinnati. And of course that place now is Cincinnati, Ohio.
48:44 Well, I found out Cincinnati is established in 1890 or 1795. So did he go there when it was first formed or was it after Lewis and Clark? I can't prove whether he was there at the time of Lewis and Clark or not. But I do know that Cincinnati was established in 1795. So he probably traveled some, sometime between
49:08 1795 and 1822. Cincinnati because he had the horse because the story says that he, uh, loaded his horses up with packs and he went east. He wanted to see where the sun comes up. His name was [speaks Nimipuutímt] That's the name of that man.
49:31 I think we're out of time for questions. Uh, would you all be willing to answer questions in the back after the program's over? All right. And please, let's thank our panel
49:46 and thank you all very much for coming. I would like to draw your attention to our program schedule. They're out on the sandwich board in the back and also the summer peace among the Nimiipuu the program, these were printed a couple of weeks ago. So there are some changes in them for our most up to date schedule. Stop by the front desk in the tent right over here to my right.
50:09 And please join us for our next program, Silas Whitman is here and he's going to be talking about reflections of the past. So join us for that program as well.