Closed Captions

Jay Old Mouse, Northern Cheyenne and Mandan, shares the history and cultural significance of the handmade courting flute. He traces the lineage of flute makers from Turkey Legs through Grover Wolf Voice to his grandfather Douglas Glenmore, explaining construction methods, musical purposes including courtship and healing, and the sacred responsibilities of the craft. Old Mouse discusses the flute's origin story and its role in Northern Cheyenne life.

Transcript

0:01 Again to the 10 of many voices for our one o'clock program, like I explained before, this is part of the Core Discovery Two traveling exhibit. And inside this tent, we do ask for many different voices to speak about aspects that have something to do with the Lewis and Clark Trail. And today, during this hour, we have a real treat. A musical performance is always a good draw and we've never actually got to hear Jay Old Mouse before.
0:25 It was a real shame. He got stormed out. So we're all really looking forward to hearing from Jay Old Mouse. He has several different tribal affiliations, Northern Cheyenne Mandan Heats and Arica. And his program is entitled the Cheyenne Courting Flute. But there's so much more to it and I want to just kind of turn it over to him. He's the expert here. So please help me welcome Jay Old Mouse to the 10 of many voices.
2:21 Thank you.
2:25 Good afternoon. The honor is all mine. I'd like to take this time and thank the Lewis and Clark people for asking me to come and be a part of this last weekend. I was able to share at Pompey's pillar and it was just as hot there as it is here today. I'm here today with my wife Amy and my youngest son, Trevor, sitting up front here and um I'm here today to talk about the Northern Cheyenne Courting flute.
2:49 This is a handmade flute made from a raw piece of wood. I got a big chunk of wood up here, made from a raw piece of wood to a finished musical instrument.
3:00 Again, the Lewis and Clark thing listening to the gentleman before me. Um, I am of the Mandan Heats Arial and I have heard the stories of, of the Lewis and Clark trail. A Mandan Hia Rica on my dad's side, on my mother's side. I'm Northern Cheyenne. I was born in Dickinson, North Dakota and I was raised on the Northern Cheyenne reservation.
3:23 It was here with my grandfather. It was about 18 years ago, 1819 years ago, I was approached by my grandfather and just in a casual way, he asked me if I would be interested in making a flute. I told him I was, I'm a certified carpenter by trade and always interested in arts and crafts.
3:49 So it was easy for me to say yes. So we started by, he'd say come on up on the weekend. So I'd go up to his house and we'd go down, uh, in Burnie area. I'm from Lame Deer, Montana. Uh Bernie area, Northern Sharon reservation and we would hunt for this wood, he would show me what to look for straight green. No, no knots, things like that.
4:14 And in my mind, I was just very interested in that I could take a raw piece of wood and finish with a beautiful musical instrument. Along the way. He would tell me things he would say. I took him as uh well at the time, just as a, as a young man, um I took him as just information and my mind was so geared at
4:38 getting to the Finnish instrument. But throughout his teaching throughout his showing me, he would tell me little uh I took him as uh life information things for myself. He said JD, you're, you're human, you're gonna have bad days, you're gonna be mad at whatever your bills, uh the weather, anything he said,
5:04 when you feel that way, don't work on this flute, work on these flutes when things are good when you feel good.
5:12 So along the way, he would tell me these things, we, we, we started with a raw piece of wood to finish musical instrument. And it took about a year, took about a year to finish it just because we worked on it on the weekends or an evening. And, and, and because of that, it took that long upon finishing my first flute, I remember the day I played it for him in his house
5:38 and I made it seem it sounded beautiful. My grandfather was even impressed with it. We sat and we visit, we laughed.
5:48 And when it was time for me to go home, my grandfather said from this day on, from this day on Jay, if someone needs a flute, if someone needs help, I am going to send them to you.
6:03 I left and I went home and I showed my mother and my father Roger and Verna Old Mouse, this flute that uh me and my grandfather had completed and I played it for them, come to find out that my grandfather had given me the right to make and play the flute for the Northern Cheyenne people.
6:25 And upon understanding that my mind began to wander, my mind began to, to want to ask more questions. So naturally, I went to my grandfather, my grandfather's name is Douglas Glenmore.
6:41 His Indian name is black bear, Mukta Nako.
6:46 He is my mother's dad. So I went to him with questions. A lot of questions.
6:55 One of the first questions was grandpa who taught you how to make the flute who gave you the right, took you step by step as you did with me. And he mentioned a guy named Grover Wolf boy.
7:11 So my immediate question after that was, do you know who taught Grover Wolf voice? And at the time, he, he mentioned the name turkey legs, a gentleman they call turkey legs.
7:27 I asked if he knew who taught turkey legs.
7:33 He said, no, I've only, I only know the name he said.
7:38 So again, an honor was bestowed upon me and it came into my life at a very young age. I was, I was in my early Twentys
7:49 and I started out by helping uh playing at graduations. I was asked to play at a few birthday parties, weddings. And as our people found out that I was a flute maker and player, I also assisted them during times of sorrow during funerals. And to this day, I'm called upon quite a bit at home, other reservations and and everywhere.
8:13 And one of the things my grandfather said was, was share this, share this with the world. So I would go around give presentations in schools, uh and even in places such as this because I'm proud and I'm honored that this has become a part of my life. And for a long time there, I had no pictures of the gentleman called turkey legs.
8:36 And at one of my presentations back home in lame deer. When I got finished, a woman had approached me and said, I have a picture of turkey legs and chills just went up the back of my neck. And and and a couple of weeks later, she brought it to me. So dis displayed before you here. This is a picture of turkey legs.
8:58 And I was quite honored to receive this picture because in his hand, he is holding a flute.
9:05 So the picture is even that much more special to me on the back of this picture. It had
9:14 Fort Keel on it. So this picture was taken right here in Miles City at Fort Keel.
9:22 And I notice on my way in, I've been here several times that one of the forts is still over here. Our building is and it surely resembles this one in the picture. And this picture they tell me was late 18 hundreds. So this is the picture of Turkey legs. He was the flute maker and player for the Northern Cheyenne people.
9:43 The gentleman I spoke of
9:46 there came a time when when Turkey legs had to seek and find someone to pass this on, teach them step by step just like my grandfather did. And he chose this gentleman Grover Wolf voice. Grover Wolf voice was the flute maker and player for the Northern Cheyenne people taught by Turkey legs. He is also holding a flute
10:13 and I have with me today and I have it with me every time I do a presentation. But this is an actual flute made from Grover Wolf voice.
10:24 Grover Wolf voice also had to find someone and teach them.
10:31 And he chose my grandfather, Douglas Glenmore, Douglas Seminole Glenmore, again whose Indian name is Black Bear Mukta.
10:43 I also have a flute that was made for my grandfather also today that I carry with me for display. This flute was made by my grandfather.
10:56 And again, roughly about 18 years ago, I was chosen, my grandfather chose me. And I had this picture taken of my grandfather and myself um in honor of all of what I've just shared with you. So again, it was a big responsibility. I consider myself a young man and still learning, still learning about this flute.
11:19 We still have elders at home that share stories with me. I just most recently heard a story about the flute. Again, it's the Cheyenne courting flute. It was used for a young man to win the heart of a young woman, kind of like Cupid's arrow. But it was also used for prayer purposes, healing
11:43 and easy listening. And I was just a story was just most recently shared with me that when the, when the camp, when the Indian village was ready to move, that a flute player or players would take turns and play music as they were tearing the camp down and getting ready to leave, they would also play as they were leaving.
12:07 It was also said that when someone was sick,
12:11 that a flute player would go to their lodge and they would play and the music is real soothing and haunting that it would take the pain away, take the pain away and allow that person to fall asleep or be more comfortable for a moment. So again, it served us several purposes in regards to the courting end of it,
12:34 I was told that a young man would go to the flute maker and request the flute be made for him. When the flute was done, that would be become a part of him again and use for the things that I've mentioned, healing prayer and also to win the heart of a young woman. And the way they say that this
12:55 how they would do that is in the evening when things were at peace after supper, so to speak, these young men would take their flutes and sit amongst the hills around the village and they would play music. And as they played, they would think only of the woman they were in love with. And if it was meant to be that woman would hear that music and follow that music
13:17 and follow it all the way to where that young man was sitting, they would meet and their relationship would grow from there. So that's how the flute works. And again, I'm still learning myself. Want to take this time and share a story with you. It's a story on how this flute came to be with Indian people.
13:39 In the old days, the old Indian days, the way a young warrior man would be recognized by his tribe, by the societies um by families. And and most importantly, by the women, the way a young man would be recognized was how well he helped his people. How well he uh did uh things of bravery,
14:02 go to enemy camps and steal horses and bring them back, go fishing. Go hunting, bring food back and help feed the people. This is how he was recognized.
14:14 The story goes is there was a warrior man who struggled in all these areas. He would go fish, he wouldn't catch anything. He would try and go steal enemy neighboring tribal horses. He'd get run off. He just struggled one day, he went hunting and he did happen to shoot and wound this big bull elk and he chased it all morning
14:40 all afternoon. He could never catch up with it before he knew it night fell upon him.
14:48 So he built himself a fire. He was going to camp there and continue tracking this animal. The next day,
14:55 that night, as he sat there gazing into the fire, he began to feel sad. He began to get down on himself. He, he was thinking, why am I still out here? Why is I can't just go hunt and, and get an animal and go, go back to my people with it. He just started really feeling down and sad. And as he was feeling this way, he began to hear this music play
15:21 and this music really soothed his heart and his mind. It cleared him of all the bad thoughts. It relaxed him. He laid back and he fell asleep the next morning, just up the ridge there, laid this big bull elk. So he got it, he skinned it, he corded it, he packed what he could back to his people. And as he came into the village with his, with his keel,
15:45 the old people saw him and they began to sing and cheer and sing songs for him as he came in. And this made him feel good. He was like, yes, this is how it's supposed to be as he came into the village and walked by the, the, the lodges and stuff. Even the women looked at him and winked at him and waved at him. And this made him swell up even more saying yes, this is how it's supposed to be.
16:09 So he shared what he had with his people. They had food, a new hide antlers for tools and weapons.
16:18 And as time went by a few weeks went by this young warrior man thought of that music that he had heard that night and he was curious and made him feel so good that it, it cleared his mind and his heart and he fell asleep. So the story goes is that he went back to the place where he had camped that night where he had heard that music and he fasted, he prayed,
16:43 he prayed to the creator that whoever whatever played that music for him to come forth and talk to him. And the story goes is that on the fourth day, this woodpecker came to him, this woodpecker came to him and spoke to him. He said, I am the one who played that music for you that night. He said, follow me. So this warrior man got up and he walked to this
17:08 old cedar tree with this woodpecker. And then the cedar tree, the woodpecker pointed out a hollowed branch.
17:20 The woodpecker pointed at a hollow branch and said, I am the one who played the music for you that night. I know how you feel. I feel that way often myself. The woodpecker said, listen, you can hear all the birds singing. Said I cannot sing like that said, I was born a carver and I carved this into this hollowed out branch of this old cedar tree.
17:45 And as the wind blows through it, I spread my wing over the holes and I can sing with the rest of the birds.
17:53 Take this down, cut this down and take it with you to your people and play music from your heart. And if it's meant to be, it will come true. So that is a story that was shared with me on how this flute came to be with Indian people. So with that, I'd like to play a little more for you
20:35 again, still, like I said earlier, considering myself a, a young man and I, there's a lot that I know for a fact that has been lost uh from the times of turkey legs to the present time. Um of me standing here and playing and sharing with you. I do rely on some questions and I'm glad the other presenter asked for questions and I'd like to ask for some questions too also.
21:00 And don't be afraid to ask any question under the sun. I'll do the best I can to answer it. But again, back to the teachings. Um, this came into my life again as a young man, um, early twenties and a time where many roads or doors of opportunity, doors of destruction, all of the above.
21:24 And this coming into my life has helped me walk the good road. They say um it closed the door on drugs on hatefulness, on uh alcohol, all of that. And I was thankful for that because life is tough. Life has many obstacles and to be called upon by my people by other people
21:49 is is an awesome feeling to help people. My grandfather said, anytime you can help someone help them. So again, that's why I'm here, sharing this with you and back to some of the teachings uh being a, a carpenter by trade. Uh When we started, I asked my grandfather, I'm like, well, how long is the flute supposed to be?
22:13 And I was reaching for my tape measure, but he said five hands which is basically one, two, 34 and five. So even the blueprint so to speak was real primitive. And I found that very interesting and fascinating.
22:33 One of the things he said also, as he said, when you finish a flute, the notes that it has make music from that
22:44 none of my flutes are tuned to a music scale. I don't read sheet music. The, the music I play comes from a feeling and I call it chasing a tune. So I just grab a flute and, and get something going and then follow it. So again, that was interesting, make note or make music from the notes that it has
23:07 another interesting thing he told me was when you finish a flute
23:14 and if it does not play
23:18 that, I might wanna put this aside and step back and take a look at myself and see how I'm living. See how I'm treating people, see how I'm treating my wife and my Children. And again, that those were some powerful words if you finish a flute and it doesn't play that I might want to put it aside and again, see how I'm living.
23:43 I'm honored to say that since I've been taught about 1819 years ago, I've made close to 8085 flutes and every one of them have played well. So, and the other thing that might be, hopefully, it's a question I keep referring to about 18 years ago. I grew up in the days of writing everything down
24:08 times date, actual day, he asked me actual day I finished the flute. But I didn't.
24:16 And oftentimes when I stand before people and share that, I often think of that. But I often think that along with the modern day world that I live in that. Maybe that's something that's just better off left alone. So therefore I just refer to it as about 18 years ago and I'm pretty close also the picture down there. Late 18 hundreds.
24:41 Some of you might be trying to do the math as passing it on.
24:45 These gentlemen were well into their eighties.
24:49 I know my grandfather passed a year ago this July. So I had a, I had a, a long time to be with him and ask questions. Every time I finished the flute, I would take it to him first and I would play it for him. He would take it and he would play for me. One of the reasons he, he, he was, he felt it was time, his hands were real arthritis up and he, and it's real tedious work to make one of these.
25:15 Those are some th that's one of the obvious things of why, why he had to find someone.
25:21 There's still some reasons why I was chosen that are unanswered because he could have chose anyone, any member of the Northern Cheyenne people. And even in my immediate family, my cousins, there's a, there's several of us, but I was chosen no disrespect to my brothers, but I was chosen and that was an honorable thing.
25:46 There was a, there was a song I had mentioned that I play from the Heart, which I do, but there was a song always requested in church often times at a funeral and I'd like to play that for you a little bit here. I'm sure you'll recognize it
27:11 again. Just listening to the, the present, the presenter before me again. Speaking of, of uh on his map showing where my, on my dad's side, the Mandan Hia and Iria
27:24 uh also hearing them say that they shared songs. I often wonder if there was a flute player back then also. But again, those are areas like I said, I'm still learning and, and all of that, another thing my grandfather told me that you could do with this was you could bugle an elk. Has anyone heard an elk bugle before any hunters here?
27:47 Ok. I'm gonna do my best here and hope we don't get one to come across the Yellowstone here. But if we do help me get him
27:58 and again, uh, they also probably used it during the hunting season. Naturally. They hunted with bow and arrow and to bugle them in and get them closer would be the way to do it. So let me try it here.
28:35 Was that close?
28:38 Mhm.
28:41 With that? Do I have any questions I need? At least? Yes
28:51 or Juniper. The question is, is this cedar or Juniper? Very good question. I refer to it as cedar. It's the stuff that has the nice aroma. Um But also I've, I've read, um, my, my dad, uh, knew of this man Grover wolf voice and he referred to it as Juniper. And I think there's probably a big family of, of cedar tree.
29:15 I've heard it referred to as western cedar, aromatic cedar. But yeah, see I uh cedarwood.
29:24 Hold on. Here we go. Do you use any other type of wood like lodge pole or do you stick to the hard, harder? Uh The question is, can I use any other kind of wood? The cording flute, the Cheyenne Cording flute. I was told to always use cedar wood. Um A brief discussion with my grandfather, um
29:47 Native American Indians use um certain cedar, certain juniper cedar trees, the the thistles off of them to burn as an incense to, to bless their home, to um chase away evil spirits. And through his discussion like that, I think that was part of the reason to use the wood, but also it's a very beautiful wood.
30:13 Um And we all know that cedar again, I guess moving into my carpenter uh knowledge cedarwood doesn't rot or takes longer for it to rot. It keeps for a long time. Um Things like that. So always to use the cedar wood. Um
30:31 I have made one out of redwood before that played real well. But again, I was always told to use the cedar wood. Yes, let me come to you.
30:42 Are, are there uh specific songs that have been passed down uh from, you know, earlier generations or, and do you then uh improvise your songs? Make your own songs
30:57 like I said earlier from the time of turkey legs. And I'm, I'm still curious on who the man that taught turkey legs. But
31:07 what you're asking is a good question. She's the songs I was told by my grandfather that was that there was at least three songs that came with this flute. One of them, I think if I remember him was a badger song, a badger song. And I'm not quite sure the other two, but those songs were lost in there again. Um And back to what I said as far as playing.
31:32 Um and I think it stands true with most tribes. Um because I know the Crow have flute players, I know the Sioux have flute players and tribes down South and it's always referred to as a love flute. So, but they have their own stories, their own stories. Um What I'm presenting today is the story and the history of the Northern Cheyenne courting flute.
31:57 And with myself, the songs, it's like I say, I play music from the heart comes from, comes from a feeling but also was told that not only from my grandfather but elders that whatever the occasion, a flute players called upon, say a funeral. Um We actually know it's a sad time. So you wanna play something that's low key and, and, and, and as you play,
32:22 you pray for the family, you pray for, I pray for myself, my wife, my Children, and then the I pray for the occasion that I'm playing for also. So, again, that's where the music comes from also. Any other questions? One over here, um, have you chosen someone to teach? Have I chosen someone yet? Uh, no, I haven't.
32:43 And the reason I haven't is because I still enjoy this very much. It's an honor. It's a blessing. But I hope I don't have to make that decision till I'm well into my eighties also. And I do have four boys. I have no girls. I have all boys. So I guess to kind of answer that maybe one of my grandchildren, maybe one of my boys,
33:08 but I don't even begin to know how or who to choose. And that was always a question also. But I always answer that by saying number one, I hope that I don't have to make that decision till I'm well into my eighties. And I think something will tell me something will show me. So hopefully that answered that any other questions, I'm not sure how I'm doing for time here. We've got about 10 minutes.
33:32 So we can do a few more questions, no problem, do a few more questions and I can play a little bit.
33:39 Um, do you use modern day tools or hand tools? Yes, I do. When my grandfather taught me though, he had a lot of, um, well, my grandfather, you gotta understand was, uh, he was always tanning hides and he also made drums for us to sing at, uh, powwows. Um, he was constantly working and he had a lot of his own homemade tools. Although
34:01 there was tools available to make it easier. But, I mean, even hide scrapers, he had a old elk horn. I remember Elk horn with a piece of, of metal bent on it, wrapped with a raw hide and he'd scraped all his hides with that. Um, a lot of, uh, tools he made. But I myself use a lot of modern day tools. Yes. But I think where the beauty is,
34:23 is to start with a raw piece of wood and finish with a musical instrument. And I always kind of answer that question too that if Turkey Las had access to a band saw, table saw, he probably would have used it also. So, uh but the other questions I was wondering, are you the eldest son in your family or what is the order of your birth in the family?
34:46 Am I the eldest in my family? No, I have an older sister and an older brother in my immediate family. And again, I'm not sure what your question is, but it's like I said, there was something about me special probably maybe to my grandfather on why I was chosen and it was no disrespect to my other brothers. And in the Indian way, my first cousins are my brothers also and I have several of them also.
35:11 So, um I have another question. Do women ever make the flutes? Do, do women ever make the flutes? Do women ever make the flutes? Uh to my knowledge? No. And that is a very good question. And I'm gonna do my best to answer this and I want this heard clearly and the times of turkey legs and the men before and, and uh I would say turkey legs in
35:34 his time and before I would say strictly men, again, being a courting flute um
35:43 strictly men during uh wolf voice time, I really couldn't tell you. And I'm gonna stay away from kind of that era. But my grandfather told me that if you can help someone, if, if by helping them and we'll say it right out. A female was to want flute. He has made a flute for a female to, to play and to have as a,
36:06 as a home um decoration or whatever. But he also encouraged her to play because he felt that if this flute can help a young woman stay away from drugs and alcohol that it was a good thing. Now you might get some different feedback from different elders, maybe elders even of this gentleman's time. So again, my thinking and that's a very tough,
36:29 that's a tough question to answer. But I have personally um had uh through the Saint Libre Indian school um during the school year I put on uh they called it a flute playing class. We'd all gather in the Catholic church in lame beer in the uh social room. Um And we and kids from Saint Lare would come over uh boys and girls so to help them. But I've never
36:54 yet honestly had a woman asked to me to show her how to make one, but I have had women asked to play them. So again, even the playing may, may raise some controversy depending on the age. But the way I look at it again is the way my grandfather looked at it. If it can help a young woman be a better person and feel better about herself. I'm more than happy to, to assist them. Mhm
37:18 Any other questions? Raise your hand. If you have a question, I'll come around OK. When turkey legs selected you, was it like a hands on um one on one saying, you know, I want you to carry on my tradition or was it with the whole assembly of people? It was the one on one. And my grandfather is the one that taught me
37:43 Douglas Turkey legs, uh taught Grover wolf voice, then wolf voice taught my grandfather and my grandfather taught me. But yes, it was just a one on one. And again, to share with you those, those things that he told me. Like I said, if one doesn't play, put it away for a while, see how I'm living. But no, it was a one on one. It was a one on one from the, from the time of asking
38:07 to the time of how to um find the wood and how to carve it and, and the Finnish instrument. It was a one on one once that was done it all. It became a community thing as far as helping the community. Um I don't think I'm stepping too far out of bounds by saying if you were to go to lame beer and ask if you had, if the Cheyennes had a flute player,
38:30 I think 98% of the time my name would come up again. There's no certificate, there's no badge, there's no diploma that says that I am the flute maker. The way this is um known to people is just like what I'm doing here, I'm here and I'm sharing it with you and I have the proof to back it up. So when you guys leave here, you're gonna share it with a family member, a friend
38:54 that you saw Jay Old Mouse, the Northern Cheyenne flute maker and player. And again, that's how the news travels. So again, Jay, we have time for you to play one more song if you would like him to play a song here. And then uh
39:11 I know there's a, this, this program, there was some information and the playing is, is kind of brief, you know, it is brief, but through being taught, my immediate family requested that I put it on a cassette tape. So I did put uh flute music on a cassette tape and then I did transfer it to a CD.
39:36 So um they are available. My wife and son have them over here. And if you purchase one, it's greatly appreciated, but I do have uh a flute and it's dedicated uh to my grandfather, Douglas Glenmore again. Who's the name is Black Bear? Mukta Naco.
41:40 Thank you, Jay. Round of applause. Thank you very much for sharing. If uh you don't mind, I don't know how much time there is, but you're more than welcome to come on up here and take a closer look at these pictures because they are beautiful and they are awesome. And I wanna thank again, you guys for inviting me the Lewis and Clark people. And I wanna thank you guys for coming out here today in this heat and, and listening to this. Thank you very much.
42:04 If you are interested in P AJ CD, we'll set you up Jay off to the side here um away for uh near the building where you and your wife could sell your C DS. So if you're interested CJ off to the side here, we're gonna be